Sometimes this Country sucks!!

[marvelboi77]

My Mother does not have health insurance and she needs and operation. She makes a little to much to get any assistance, but not enough money to be able to afford health insurance. So this country sucks because someone who has worked all their life can't get help but some lazy as s can get assistance.

This country is great because I was raised by a loving mother who gave me a great head on my shoulders. Because of her I am able to have a good enough job and I sent her the $2,500 for the down payment for the surgery. Thank God the hospital will take payments after that...

So good and bad. What do you guys think about the whole insurance thing.

[bane]

That's something we in Europe have better than you guys over there , and face it Health is more important than anything else .

Sad thing to hear you've been working all your life but can't get medical help once it matters .
Good thing she has a decent son like you , not all people can say that.

[galactus]

So good and bad. What do you guys think about the whole insurance thing.

Sorry to hear about your mother Mike.

As for health insurance, the whole system here is COMPLETELY f***ed. It costs too much, so businesses and people can barely afford it. Yet somehow, the really good doctors don't want to deal with it since the insurance companies pay out too little (so you need to pay up front, and then try to get your money back from the insurance company, which is where all your premiums are ending up). Add to that the OUTRAGEOUS cost of prescription drugs and you have the triple whammy when it comes to healthcare in America.
Hospitals have a responsibility to treat you in an emegency. But like Mike said, if you have a job (no matter what job), you need to pay it back. But the people on welfare with 10 kids and making NO contribution to society at all somehow get it all for free????

[Curt Chiarelli]

My take on the health insurance situation in this country is that it's nothing less than a national disgrace. I'm sure you know how the Bush administration has turned the Medicare prescription program into an unmitigated disaster for millions of senior citizens. And this trend indicates that things will only become worse as more and more Baby Boomers retire.

I'm so sorry to see this happen to your mother. I hope all turns out well for her.

[nbr3bagshotrow]

That's something we in Europe have better than you guys over there , and face it Health is more important than anything else .

Sad thing to hear you've been working all your life but can't get medical help once it matters .
Good thing she has a decent son like you , not all people can say that.Funded by what, a 50% (at least) tax system plus VAT system. I guess that's why, whenever I send something over there the first think i get is "list it as a gift and value it at only $25". Sure thing bub, if your $500 statue gets busted don't come a whinin!

PS. Sorry about your mother. I'd be sending funds to help mine too if it came to that.

[bane]

Funded by what, a 50% (at least) tax system plus VAT system. I guess that's why, whenever I send something over there the first think i get is "list it as a gift and value it at only $25". Sure thing bub, if your $500 statue gets busted don't come a whinin!

PS. Sorry about your mother. I'd be sending funds to help mine too if it came to that.


I Know that , and it is hard working people who fund that and if you're a lazy bum who does nothing all day you even get paid on our expenses ( wellfair )!!! People immigrate to Belgium just to profit that system ( not all ofcourse )

But that's also why I wrote in my first reply " Health is more important than anything else " , what means ; more important than statues or money ( although they come to a close second !! )

[Avenger]

My Mother does not have health insurance and she needs and operation. She makes a little to much to get any assistance, but not enough money to be able to afford health insurance. So this country sucks because someone who has worked all their life can't get help but some lazy as s can get assistance.

This country is great because I was raised by a loving mother who gave me a great head on my shoulders. Because of her I am able to have a good enough job and I sent her the $2,500 for the down payment for the surgery. Thank God the hospital will take payments after that...

So good and bad. What do you guys think about the whole insurance thing.
Sorry to hear this M~. Hope everything goes alright. Is she here in Ohio?

[Confessor]

This is a topic about which so much can be said. I hate to see personal stories like MB's (mom) when one is b/w a rock and a hardplace. And I sympathize and agree w/ many who state those working but not making a great deal have a headache (healthcare costs) that welfare folks dont have (as much of).

I am definitely NOT in favor of a govt. insurance plan (a la Europe, Canada, etc.) THAT is a disaster. It's very obvious to anyone who's studied both systems in detail. The socialist healthcare system (SHCS) is bankrupting socialist govts who use it. Ive worked in both and seen it from the inside. This is the system that Hilary tried (thankfully unsuccessfully) to instigate behind closed doors early in Clinton's first term.

CC: And Bush's creation of the Medicare Rx Drug plan is a disaster. But not the way, perhaps, that you mean. He stole the idea from the liberal socialists (US democrats) and called it his own....huge mistake....in order to sway voters. It should never have been done in any form. It is a disaster waiting to happen that is unsustainable. But the prob. is that he took a stupid liberal plan and tried to make it work....mistake. There's so much to say about this but I'd get carpal tunnel typing it all. So suffice to say, it stinks bigtime.

I think the answer here is HSA (Healthcare Savings Accounts). These are great and get health insurance back into the way it was supposed to work all along. Heath ins. should be for "catestrophic" health issues only. We westerners (US, Canada, Europe) think that "having ins" means (in many folks' minds) not paying for any healthcare. That's ridiculous. Think about it. You dont file auto ins. for a flat tire....or an oil change....or other routine issues. Only for "catestrophic" stuff.

Likewise, we ought to cover our own reg-MD checkups, shots/vaccines, etc. The HCSA system has a high deductible (3k, 5k 10k) but low premiums. The insured is responsible for saving up the deductible (but one can buy insurance even to cover you in case you have a "catestrophic need" b4 you've got that in the bank). You go to the MD and tap that acct as needed. Anything in a year over and above the ded. is covered by the ins. co. Some yrs you win, some you lose. But when you dont use your ded, it grows from yr to yr in an invested acct. And it grows tax free. And you can pass this to your heirs tax free, to be used for the same purpose.

Broad use of HCSA would do at least a couple of good things:

(1) It'd force us users to save and think of health ins the right way (see auto ins ex. above)

(2) Since the user is cutting a check at the MD ofc/hosp, he's acutely more aware of costs charged. So he's gonna shop around. This'll generate healthy competition amongst providers for the same service.....even various hospitals int he same town...and help keep costs down.

(3) It'd give us a tax free way to save now (as younger folks) for later (when we're older) when we'll need health care more.

In the end, though, we are each responsible for our own well being/care. We are responsible, I believe, to help those whom we love (family, etc.) when they're in a pinch (as MB so properly and clearly lovingly has done). Groups proclaiming to serve the public good charitably (churches, secular charities, etc.) should do their part as their mission statement(s) lead. But I don't thinkg the govt. ever did much efficiently on any issues. The govt. role should be very very limited....to be a bare bones safety net for those TRULY unable to care for themselves.....bare necessities only. Anything more runs us further down the path of a socialist, big brother govt. idea, where govt is supposed to cure all that ails us.....BAD move.

[boondocksaint]

yeah man sorry about your mom....hope all turns out well

[marvelboi77]

Sorry to hear this M~. Hope everything goes alright. Is she here in Ohio?
Yes she lives in the Jackson/ Oakhill area about 70 or 80 miles from Columbus.

[Avenger]

Yes she lives in the Jackson/ Oakhill area about 70 or 80 miles from Columbus.
If you have to come this way and need anything let us know and we will do what we can for you. :)

[marvelboi77]

If you have to come this way and need anything let us know and we will do what we can for you. :)
Hey Thanks. It's not going to be life threatening surgery she just has to have her putty tat lasered and a balloon put up in there. Her periods are about 28 days long a month and she is loosing alot of blood, but she won't have her putty tat pulled out which I suggested.

Is this to much info. :laugh:

[Avenger]

Hey Thanks. It's not going to be life threatening surgery she just has to have her putty tat lasered and a balloon put up in there. Her periods are about 28 days long a month and she is loosing alot of blood, but she won't have her putty tat pulled out which I suggested.

Is this to much info. :laugh:
Just a tad. :laugh:

[Bullseye]

The health system here in Europe isn't much better. We pay higher taxes so that we can have a better health system, when infact we have a health care not short of disasterous. My Mother is currently in Hospital and is just out from a serious operation. She was waiting almost a year for a bed, then she finally gets one and has to wait for three days before the operation (Consultant probably playing golf somewhere). Then they botch the operation and she has bleeding on the brain. Looks like she's going to have to stay in the IC unit for another 2 weeks before she gets the all clear.

[Avenger]

The health system here in Europe isn't much better. We pay higher taxes so that we can have a better health system, when infact we have a health care not short of disasterous. My Mother is currently in Hospital and is just out from a serious operation. She was waiting almost a year for a bed, then she finally gets one and has to wait for three days before the operation (Consultant probably playing golf somewhere). Then they botch the operation and she has bleeding on the brain. Looks like she's going to have to stay in the IC unit for another 2 weeks before she gets the all clear.
Sorry to hear that Bullseye. Hope everything goes alright.

[marvelboi77]

Sorry to hear that Bulls... I hope she gets better. Hey we should all write down are healthcare horror stories.

[Bullseye]

Cheers MB. Hope things work out for your Mother too.

[Curt Chiarelli]

The health system here in Europe isn't much better. We pay higher taxes so that we can have a better health system, when infact we have a health care not short of disasterous. My Mother is currently in Hospital and is just out from a serious operation. She was waiting almost a year for a bed, then she finally gets one and has to wait for three days before the operation (Consultant probably playing golf somewhere). Then they botch the operation and she has bleeding on the brain. Looks like she's going to have to stay in the IC unit for another 2 weeks before she gets the all clear.

I'm sorry Bulls. My thoughts are with your mother. Here's wishing her a quick recovery.

[Primal]

Hey Thanks. It's not going to be life threatening surgery she just has to have her putty tat lasered and a balloon put up in there. Her periods are about 28 days long a month and she is loosing alot of blood, but she won't have her putty tat pulled out which I suggested.

Is this to much info. :laugh:Oh man...I know this is a serious topic but that post made me laugh. :laugh:
I tawt, I tawt a Putty Tat!!! :laugh:

Hope everything works out MB.

[Curt Chiarelli]

This is a topic about which so much can be said. I hate to see personal stories like MB's (mom) when one is b/w a rock and a hardplace. And I sympathize and agree w/ many who state those working but not making a great deal have a headache (healthcare costs) that welfare folks dont have (as much of).

I am definitely NOT in favor of a govt. insurance plan (a la Europe, Canada, etc.) THAT is a disaster. It's very obvious to anyone who's studied both systems in detail. The socialist healthcare system (SHCS) is bankrupting socialist govts who use it. Ive worked in both and seen it from the inside. This is the system that Hilary tried (thankfully unsuccessfully) to instigate behind closed doors early in Clinton's first term.

CC: And Bush's creation of the Medicare Rx Drug plan is a disaster. But not the way, perhaps, that you mean. He stole the idea from the liberal socialists (US democrats) and called it his own....huge mistake....in order to sway voters. It should never have been done in any form. It is a disaster waiting to happen that is unsustainable. But the prob. is that he took a stupid liberal plan and tried to make it work....mistake. There's so much to say about this but I'd get carpal tunnel typing it all. So suffice to say, it stinks bigtime.

I think the answer here is HSA (Healthcare Savings Accounts). These are great and get health insurance back into the way it was supposed to work all along. Heath ins. should be for "catestrophic" health issues only. We westerners (US, Canada, Europe) think that "having ins" means (in many folks' minds) not paying for any healthcare. That's ridiculous. Think about it. You dont file auto ins. for a flat tire....or an oil change....or other routine issues. Only for "catestrophic" stuff.

Likewise, we ought to cover our own reg-MD checkups, shots/vaccines, etc. The HCSA system has a high deductible (3k, 5k 10k) but low premiums. The insured is responsible for saving up the deductible (but one can buy insurance even to cover you in case you have a "catestrophic need" b4 you've got that in the bank). You go to the MD and tap that acct as needed. Anything in a year over and above the ded. is covered by the ins. co. Some yrs you win, some you lose. But when you dont use your ded, it grows from yr to yr in an invested acct. And it grows tax free. And you can pass this to your heirs tax free, to be used for the same purpose.

Broad use of HCSA would do at least a couple of good things:

(1) It'd force us users to save and think of health ins the right way (see auto ins ex. above)

(2) Since the user is cutting a check at the MD ofc/hosp, he's acutely more aware of costs charged. So he's gonna shop around. This'll generate healthy competition amongst providers for the same service.....even various hospitals int he same town...and help keep costs down.

(3) It'd give us a tax free way to save now (as younger folks) for later (when we're older) when we'll need health care more.

In the end, though, we are each responsible for our own well being/care. We are responsible, I believe, to help those whom we love (family, etc.) when they're in a pinch (as MB so properly and clearly lovingly has done). Groups proclaiming to serve the public good charitably (churches, secular charities, etc.) should do their part as their mission statement(s) lead. But I don't thinkg the govt. ever did much efficiently on any issues. The govt. role should be very very limited....to be a bare bones safety net for those TRULY unable to care for themselves.....bare necessities only. Anything more runs us further down the path of a socialist, big brother govt. idea, where govt is supposed to cure all that ails us.....BAD move.

You know, I love insightful, thought-provoking replies like this one! And yes, actually I did know the origins of that program. Leave it to Bush's administration to appropriate the wrong ideas and apply them in the wrong way for the wrong reasons! I sometimes wonder which is our worst enemy: hare-brained, left-field schemes cooked up by Berkeley poli-sci instructors or corrupt, hard-right policies applied in an inept fashion for specious reasons. In this case, it would appear that we've achieved the worst of both worlds!

Whatever its merits (and it has many), HCSA has an Achilles heel, and a big one at that - namely, so many people are either unemployed or a part of America's growing new class, the working poor, that, no matter how many low-paying part-time jobs they have, their savings have been liquidated and STILL need to live off their credit cards to pay for the bare essentials.

And when I speak of the working poor, I am not talking about folks who couldn't forestall their immediate gratification to reap greater benefits later on in life, people who haven't invested heavily in their future, who were the proverbial grasshopper to the ant. No, I'm speaking of intelligent, diligent, educated former middle-class people who have seen their future and the future of their children stolen from them by corporate greed, government corruption and misplaced national priorites.

As long as this problem persists, HCSA will remain an unrealizable pipe dream for many of our 300 million citizens.

I'd be very interested in hearing your thoughts on this aspect of the problem.

[nbr3bagshotrow]

The health system here in Europe isn't much better. We pay higher taxes so that we can have a better health system, when infact we have a health care not short of disasterous. My Mother is currently in Hospital and is just out from a serious operation. She was waiting almost a year for a bed, then she finally gets one and has to wait for three days before the operation (Consultant probably playing golf somewhere). Then they botch the operation and she has bleeding on the brain. Looks like she's going to have to stay in the IC unit for another 2 weeks before she gets the all clear.
I hope your mom comes out ok after all this.

[cblakey1]

This is a topic about which so much can be said. I hate to see personal stories like MB's (mom) when one is b/w a rock and a hardplace. And I sympathize and agree w/ many who state those working but not making a great deal have a headache (healthcare costs) that welfare folks dont have (as much of).

I am definitely NOT in favor of a govt. insurance plan (a la Europe, Canada, etc.) THAT is a disaster. It's very obvious to anyone who's studied both systems in detail. The socialist healthcare system (SHCS) is bankrupting socialist govts who use it. Ive worked in both and seen it from the inside. This is the system that Hilary tried (thankfully unsuccessfully) to instigate behind closed doors early in Clinton's first term.

CC: And Bush's creation of the Medicare Rx Drug plan is a disaster. But not the way, perhaps, that you mean. He stole the idea from the liberal socialists (US democrats) and called it his own....huge mistake....in order to sway voters. It should never have been done in any form. It is a disaster waiting to happen that is unsustainable. But the prob. is that he took a stupid liberal plan and tried to make it work....mistake. There's so much to say about this but I'd get carpal tunnel typing it all. So suffice to say, it stinks bigtime.

I think the answer here is HSA (Healthcare Savings Accounts). These are great and get health insurance back into the way it was supposed to work all along. Heath ins. should be for "catestrophic" health issues only. We westerners (US, Canada, Europe) think that "having ins" means (in many folks' minds) not paying for any healthcare. That's ridiculous. Think about it. You dont file auto ins. for a flat tire....or an oil change....or other routine issues. Only for "catestrophic" stuff.

Likewise, we ought to cover our own reg-MD checkups, shots/vaccines, etc. The HCSA system has a high deductible (3k, 5k 10k) but low premiums. The insured is responsible for saving up the deductible (but one can buy insurance even to cover you in case you have a "catestrophic need" b4 you've got that in the bank). You go to the MD and tap that acct as needed. Anything in a year over and above the ded. is covered by the ins. co. Some yrs you win, some you lose. But when you dont use your ded, it grows from yr to yr in an invested acct. And it grows tax free. And you can pass this to your heirs tax free, to be used for the same purpose.

Broad use of HCSA would do at least a couple of good things:

(1) It'd force us users to save and think of health ins the right way (see auto ins ex. above)

(2) Since the user is cutting a check at the MD ofc/hosp, he's acutely more aware of costs charged. So he's gonna shop around. This'll generate healthy competition amongst providers for the same service.....even various hospitals int he same town...and help keep costs down.

(3) It'd give us a tax free way to save now (as younger folks) for later (when we're older) when we'll need health care more.

In the end, though, we are each responsible for our own well being/care. We are responsible, I believe, to help those whom we love (family, etc.) when they're in a pinch (as MB so properly and clearly lovingly has done). Groups proclaiming to serve the public good charitably (churches, secular charities, etc.) should do their part as their mission statement(s) lead. But I don't thinkg the govt. ever did much efficiently on any issues. The govt. role should be very very limited....to be a bare bones safety net for those TRULY unable to care for themselves.....bare necessities only. Anything more runs us further down the path of a socialist, big brother govt. idea, where govt is supposed to cure all that ails us.....BAD move.

Man, if you cut through all the RW vitriol and hyperbole, you're basically saying that healthcare should only be available to those who can afford it.

Try tellin' Joe Sixpack in the midwest that he's gonna need to fork over the several hundred dollars for a wellness exam, or the single mother making 25k per year that all he kid's shots/checkups are on her until her high deductible is paid. There is something very wrong with asking already strapped people to put away money that they're not making to begin with.

Bad :banghead: bad :banghead: idea. :banghead:

Heck, I'd pay the 50% tax if it insured me a dr visit and a hospital stay when I need it. It's not like the gov't ain't whacking me for 30% or more now. That, plus the several hundred I pay to the "social" PMO, HMO (whatever the heck it is) for my wife and I each month more than accounts for that 50% that's supposed to be such a bad idea in Europe. Look, we got the infrastructure in place, why not model our health care system after Canada and try to make it better?

You're not a doctor, right? :rolleyes2

Bulls and Boi.. I wish good health to your moms!

[rychehitman]

Marvelboi-

first things first.....IF you need anything, as Avenger mentioned...the Ohio Knights are here for ya man! My wife works in the healthcare industry out here....Pm me if you ever need anything..OR if your mom would ever want someone to visit her, or if you want someone to check up on her!


Healthcare in the U.S. is a tough sometimes. Overall better than most, and not as good as a few. The one thing many don't wan't you to know is the fact that legally, they MUST put you on a payment plan. they will try to convince you they cannot, but they have too! My wife tells this to people all the time...she deals mostly with Oncology Data at this point , but has done medical records, and assorted other areas in the medical field. Many people do not get the care they need, because they are convinced they need to pay for it up fron tfrom the hospital. Its a big scam!

[Colossus]

This is a topic about which so much can be said. I hate to see personal stories like MB's (mom) when one is b/w a rock and a hardplace. And I sympathize and agree w/ many who state those working but not making a great deal have a headache (healthcare costs) that welfare folks dont have (as much of).

I am definitely NOT in favor of a govt. insurance plan (a la Europe, Canada, etc.) THAT is a disaster. It's very obvious to anyone who's studied both systems in detail. The socialist healthcare system (SHCS) is bankrupting socialist govts who use it. Ive worked in both and seen it from the inside. This is the system that Hilary tried (thankfully unsuccessfully) to instigate behind closed doors early in Clinton's first term.

CC: And Bush's creation of the Medicare Rx Drug plan is a disaster. But not the way, perhaps, that you mean. He stole the idea from the liberal socialists (US democrats) and called it his own....huge mistake....in order to sway voters. It should never have been done in any form. It is a disaster waiting to happen that is unsustainable. But the prob. is that he took a stupid liberal plan and tried to make it work....mistake. There's so much to say about this but I'd get carpal tunnel typing it all. So suffice to say, it stinks bigtime.

I think the answer here is HSA (Healthcare Savings Accounts). These are great and get health insurance back into the way it was supposed to work all along. Heath ins. should be for "catestrophic" health issues only. We westerners (US, Canada, Europe) think that "having ins" means (in many folks' minds) not paying for any healthcare. That's ridiculous. Think about it. You dont file auto ins. for a flat tire....or an oil change....or other routine issues. Only for "catestrophic" stuff.

Likewise, we ought to cover our own reg-MD checkups, shots/vaccines, etc. The HCSA system has a high deductible (3k, 5k 10k) but low premiums. The insured is responsible for saving up the deductible (but one can buy insurance even to cover you in case you have a "catestrophic need" b4 you've got that in the bank). You go to the MD and tap that acct as needed. Anything in a year over and above the ded. is covered by the ins. co. Some yrs you win, some you lose. But when you dont use your ded, it grows from yr to yr in an invested acct. And it grows tax free. And you can pass this to your heirs tax free, to be used for the same purpose.

Broad use of HCSA would do at least a couple of good things:

(1) It'd force us users to save and think of health ins the right way (see auto ins ex. above)

(2) Since the user is cutting a check at the MD ofc/hosp, he's acutely more aware of costs charged. So he's gonna shop around. This'll generate healthy competition amongst providers for the same service.....even various hospitals int he same town...and help keep costs down.

(3) It'd give us a tax free way to save now (as younger folks) for later (when we're older) when we'll need health care more.

In the end, though, we are each responsible for our own well being/care. We are responsible, I believe, to help those whom we love (family, etc.) when they're in a pinch (as MB so properly and clearly lovingly has done). Groups proclaiming to serve the public good charitably (churches, secular charities, etc.) should do their part as their mission statement(s) lead. But I don't thinkg the govt. ever did much efficiently on any issues. The govt. role should be very very limited....to be a bare bones safety net for those TRULY unable to care for themselves.....bare necessities only. Anything more runs us further down the path of a socialist, big brother govt. idea, where govt is supposed to cure all that ails us.....BAD move.

You made many valid and good points only huge flaw I see is that people will get cheap and pass up on their regular check ups and such (yes I know its their own fault) but with them doing that things like early detection on cancer, and many other things that would be able to be monitored and such I believe would be ignored and the overall general health of the populace would decline.

[Confessor]

The one thing many don't wan't you to know is the fact that legally, they MUST put you on a payment plan. they will try to convince you they cannot, but they have too! My wife tells this to people all the time...she deals mostly with Oncology Data at this point , but has done medical records, and assorted other areas in the medical field. Many people do not get the care they need, because they are convinced they need to pay for it up fron tfrom the hospital. Its a big scam!

Healthcare in the US is the best in the world, bar none. No doubt. It's a fact that's obvious enough, but just look at where folks go in the whole world for medical training (when they have the opportunity)....the US. Physicians in training are beating down the door to get over here long enough to learn, then return to their country of origin. The reverse is almost never the case.

As for the "must put you on payment plan".....that's simply not true. At least its not a federal law....maybe just in your state. And its certainly not true for part B providers like physicians (hospitals=partA). There's no such law for physicians....

One big prob. with folks is that they dont prioritize healthcare. In every family,the priorities (as far as preparation for a "rainy day" goes) ought to be: (1) food, (2) shelter/clothing, (3) healthcare.....the rest follow. But healthcare is usually the last thing on folk's mind until there's a problem. Many times b/c they know that in a real pinch (ER, etc.), someone else will foot the bill.

Man, could I share some stories on that one!

[Confessor]

Man, if you cut through all the RW vitriol and hyperbole, you're basically saying that healthcare should only be available to those who can afford it.



You'll have to specifically point out what you (mis)read as hyperbole and vitriole....b/c its not in my post. Allow me to clarify what I said further after you do that.

Sorry, but you dont know what youre talking about. It's worth your time (for yourself and family) to go learn about HCSA. Then you can come back and contribute from knowledge gained, rather than subjective gut resposnse. If you can be objective, I'll change your mind. Cananda's hc system is a shambles. I've seen it from the inside (have you?). Did you read Bulls post? Europes is no better....long waits for beds, lkong wait for surgery. Try getting a sick gall bladder then get told that you'll have to wait for 5 months, maybe 12 to get it taken out. See how that wait affects your work productivity, quality of life, etc. I cant tell you the number of Canadians I saw in PA who came down just to get their gall bladder out b/c they were miserable and wouldnt wait...and they were not "well to do" by any means. They simply made it a priority.

The govt is not the answer to the large majority of our problems, hc or otherwise. Its never done much of anything....if anything....in an efficient and productive way. In the large majority of cases, the private sector has always been the answer for innovation, creativity and probem solving. Its sad to see americans take on the mantle of a socialist (govt=answer to all problems) so foolishly. All one has to do is look across the pond or to our north to see how poorly it works on so many levels. See, they pay over 50% tax and STILL have a subpar system.

HCSA are worth your effort to learn about. Then you can come back and do a point counter point with me and we can discuss it on a level playing field and each perhaps learn something. But knee jerk reactions from uninformed positions look to the reader to be just sophmoric rants and nothing more....

[Tattoo-S]

While I totally feel for your mom MB, I have few harsh words to say about this subject. 3 years ago, when I spent 7 weeks in ICU @ $1,600 per day just to be there.......not including all the monitors and machines, nurses, labs, etc.....The bill for that alone was just shy of $250,000 of which we had only $2000 out of pocket expense. My husband works alot, and he works real hard.......makes a little less than other people in other states but his benefits most certainly more than make up the difference. I do feel her aggrivation, as I tried to collect my SSD insurance and was told that I couldn't because my husband made too much money......(at the time I was looking into an additional surgery, and ways to suppliment our income, as I was no longer able to work) We were very fortunate, to be able to cover our expenses and be exempt from a large portion of the medical bills, but some things do seem @ss backwords. I never had understood why people who truely need medical attention and can't afford it are always left out in the cold over a few bucks that is going to get billed to those that can afford it.......downfall of capitalism.........money grubbing politicians anyhow. Use all the big problems in this country as a platform to gain support and then turn their backs on them, once confirmed in office. :thumbsdow

[rychehitman]

When our second child was born...the labor went SO FAST that the Dr. never made it....yet, SOMEHOW we still got charged for the Dr. fees!

[Tommy Allison]

I had no health insurance for a long time. Never needed it. Never had Dental insurance either.

After a number of years, of some strange health problems, stemming from the poor dental care I received, Mercury Fillings, It cost me a fortune to get them removed, and to have 3 root canals.

I paid out of pocket for everything. My health has returned for the most part. Going to the doctor is a joke, because more often than not, they don't listen to you, they don't work with you, and you as a patient take the crap they give you with absolutely no insight, or education as to what the ailment is.

What I have found is that the best approach to the American Healthcare system, is to make friends with doctors, and don't get sick.

That way, you get insights and knowledge, and the doctor who treats you actually cares. I mean, if you can beat a doctor in golf, you're doing something, but... If you can cater to his hobby, and out golf them... They will do anything to keep you alive.

That is, unless you're a cheater at golf.

[JM28Cardiff]

Its not perfect in Europe, but I've had 5 operations on the National Health Service, some emergency, some not, didn't have to wait that long for the non emergency ones. Basic tax is 22% for me, sure theres VAT and National insurance contributions, but my experience of the NHS has been ok.

Hospitals are very dirty though, especially these days, I'd be concerned if I went in again about getting MRSA

[Confessor]

I had no health insurance for a long time. Never needed it. Never had Dental insurance either..... Going to the doctor is a joke, because more often than not, they don't listen to you, they don't work with you, and you as a patient take the crap they give you with absolutely no insight, or education as to what the ailment is......golf.

Sorry to hear your story. A few thoughts come to mind, though. Unless your Bill Gates or an equivalent, I can't imagine that you "never need[ed]" health insurance. We all do....for at least catestrophic issues. Who would you expect to pay your medical bills if you sadly were involved in a car accident and required all sorts of trauma room management, ICU care and maybe surgery? Tax payers (in the end) cover the uninsured in such a scenario (that is not uncommon)...and thats one of many reasons why hc is so expensive. Costs from uninsured are deferred to those with insurance, and to taxpayers (via govt fed funding to cover uninsured and under-insured [medicare and medicaid]).

As for your bad experience with MDs (or is that dentists?). Be proactive I think most (but certainly enough that one shouldnt be too hard to find) MDs are compassionate and understanding....shop around....you're worth that effort, arent you? You can "fire" your doc just like to do a mediocre painter. Then shop around and establish a relationship with a good family prac or internist and go with that.

Good luck.

[Confessor]

.....I'd be very interested in hearing your thoughts on this aspect of the problem.

I have a lot of faith in the HCSA system....its no pipe dream at all. But folks will have to make hc a priority (after food and shelter). I thknk you overstate the plight of the "working poor." It'd be interesting for us to each define what we mean by "poor." I saw a piece on TV recently where a guy with a mike wend down a line going into a soup kitchen. All there called themselves poor. Fact is, most had apts (via govt funding), ALL had cable TV, many had pagers, half had cell phones....all of which they deemed "essentials." C'mon, man, what's up with that? We should all tour the WORLD for REAL examples of "poor." There's very very little of real poverty in the US.

I'd love for you to give me specific examples of "educated, formally middle class" folks who have had liquidated savings (very few save these days sadly) by "corporate greed, corrupt govt and misplaced natl priorities." I do abhor the govt system of pork barrel politics, $ toting lobbyists and the "always running for ofc" mentality of elected folks....but that's not directly the prob here....that's for another discussion all together (term limits would solve a lot of this).

Whenever liberals (not you but in I speak in general terms) try to use economics to make a point, they always seem to get it wrong - always.

Recently, two liberal think tanks released a new report on the gap between the rich and the poor. They are the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities and the Economic Policy Institute. The facts in their report may be accurate. Sinced I haven't yet investigated that, for the sake of this post I am going to assume they are. But nevertheless, their conclusions are exactly wrong.

The report says the incomes of the poorest 20 percent of families in America grew by an average of $2,660, or 19 percent, over the past 20 years. Families in the middle fifth saw their incomes rise 28 percent, or $10,218. And, incomes of the richest fifth of families grew by $45,100, or nearly 59 percent. The incomes are "after adjusted for inflation," and the figures are averages, not median.

From this data, the liberal groups conclude that (1) the gap between the rich and the poor is growing (true) and (2) that's a bad thing that should be corrected by shifting more of the tax burden to the rich (false).

What the report shows is that those on the bottom rung of the economic ladder enjoy 19 percent more buying power than a different group on the same rung did 20 years ago (big round of applause please) and that the potential rewards for everyone are 59 percent higher. That is a phenonemal point and explains why others from around the world are trying to do all they can to get in the US.

One extremely important thing that the report fails to address is the amount of income mobility now, compared to 20 years ago. How many people are moving from the bottom fifth to the next fifth, and so on, and how fast are they getting there? If that data shows what I suspect it would, the liberal groups' arguments would be even weaker than they are.

But even without that missing information, what reasonably sane American, who is interested in his own financial comfort, would prefer the 20-year-old income ladder to the one they can begin to climb today? I love it when liberals use economics to try to justify forced income redistribution. They always get it wrong - always.

[Colossus]

I have a lot of faith in the HCSA system....its no pipe dream at all. But folks will have to make hc a priority (after food and shelter). I thknk you overstate the plight of the "working poor." It'd be interesting for us to each define what we mean by "poor." I saw a piece on TV recently where a guy with a mike wend down a line going into a soup kitchen. All there called themselves poor. Fact is, most had apts (via govt funding), ALL had cable TV, many had pagers, half had cell phones....all of which they deemed "essentials." C'mon, man, what's up with that? We should all tour the WORLD for REAL examples of "poor." There's very very little of real poverty in the US.

I'd love for you to give me specific examples of "educated, formally middle class" folks who have had liquidated savings (very few save these days sadly) by "corporate greed, corrupt govt and misplaced natl priorities." I do abhor the govt system of pork barrel politics, $ toting lobbyists and the "always running for ofc" mentality of elected folks....but that's not directly the prob here....that's for another discussion all together (term limits would solve a lot of this).

Whenever liberals (not you but in I speak in general terms) try to use economics to make a point, they always seem to get it wrong - always.

Recently, two liberal think tanks released a new report on the gap between the rich and the poor. They are the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities and the Economic Policy Institute. The facts in their report may be accurate. Sinced I haven't yet investigated that, for the sake of this post I am going to assume they are. But nevertheless, their conclusions are exactly wrong.

The report says the incomes of the poorest 20 percent of families in America grew by an average of $2,660, or 19 percent, over the past 20 years. Families in the middle fifth saw their incomes rise 28 percent, or $10,218. And, incomes of the richest fifth of families grew by $45,100, or nearly 59 percent. The incomes are "after adjusted for inflation," and the figures are averages, not median.

From this data, the liberal groups conclude that (1) the gap between the rich and the poor is growing (true) and (2) that's a bad thing that should be corrected by shifting more of the tax burden to the rich (false).

What the report shows is that those on the bottom rung of the economic ladder enjoy 19 percent more buying power than a different group on the same rung did 20 years ago (big round of applause please) and that the potential rewards for everyone are 59 percent higher. That is a phenonemal point and explains why others from around the world are trying to do all they can to get in the US.

One extremely important thing that the report fails to address is the amount of income mobility now, compared to 20 years ago. How many people are moving from the bottom fifth to the next fifth, and so on, and how fast are they getting there? If that data shows what I suspect it would, the liberal groups' arguments would be even weaker than they are.

But even without that missing information, what reasonably sane American, who is interested in his own financial comfort, would prefer the 20-year-old income ladder to the one they can begin to climb today? I love it when liberals use economics to try to justify forced income redistribution. They always get it wrong - always.

Whoa, whoa, whoa hold up a minute there. Talking healthcare for the most part I will take a doctors word. You are WAY off on the financial side of this whole "Rich/Poor" issue, sorry to say. I am a mortgage broker, I see peoples finances everyday. Some do real well, and some, hmm lets just say without people like me they would still be renting, because a bank would just say no.

You seem to think a 19% rise in income over 20 years is good? How about in that same 20 years an average nationwide of over 150% rise in house prices, 100% rise in fuel prices, over 100% rise in utilities. It is getting worse not better 19% is a joke. I see people with 65% debt to income ratios, let me clarify that a little debt to income is based off of the gross income versus the debt shown on the credit report. So that income is yet to be taxed say 25% Leaving utilities, gas, food, and ohh yeah if they can afford it and their job doesn't provide it healthcare. They are not buying mansions either maybe a 1200 square foot house for a 4 person family, and paying 40% of their actual income to the mortgage company, property tax, and hazard insurance, 15% to their car payment, and 10% to credit cards that are constantly rising because of their bad spending habits or maybe its because every month they are a little bit short and this hole each month is a little deeper. They are the working poor, no not living on the street poor, but living at the bottom end and wondering each month how they are gonna make it, which is highly stressful and causes more health problems. This is what most of the "conservative" politicians don't understand, because they just don't seem to grasp the concept, they think hell those people should stop being lazy go to Harvard and become a lawyer. The system makes it that if you are not absolutely poverty stricken you don't qualify for anything, assistance, insurance, or anything else. I am sorry I am not trying to start an arguement here but IMO that 19% is an absolute joke.

[cblakey1]

You'll have to specifically point out what you (mis)read as hyperbole and vitriole....b/c its not in my post. Allow me to clarify what I said further after you do that.

Sorry, but you dont know what youre talking about. It's worth your time (for yourself and family) to go learn about HCSA. Then you can come back and contribute from knowledge gained, rather than subjective gut resposnse. If you can be objective, I'll change your mind. Cananda's hc system is a shambles. I've seen it from the inside (have you?). Did you read Bulls post? Europes is no better....long waits for beds, lkong wait for surgery. Try getting a sick gall bladder then get told that you'll have to wait for 5 months, maybe 12 to get it taken out. See how that wait affects your work productivity, quality of life, etc. I cant tell you the number of Canadians I saw in PA who came down just to get their gall bladder out b/c they were miserable and wouldnt wait...and they were not "well to do" by any means. They simply made it a priority.

The govt is not the answer to the large majority of our problems, hc or otherwise. Its never done much of anything....if anything....in an efficient and productive way. In the large majority of cases, the private sector has always been the answer for innovation, creativity and probem solving. Its sad to see americans take on the mantle of a socialist (govt=answer to all problems) so foolishly. All one has to do is look across the pond or to our north to see how poorly it works on so many levels. See, they pay over 50% tax and STILL have a subpar system.

HCSA are worth your effort to learn about. Then you can come back and do a point counter point with me and we can discuss it on a level playing field and each perhaps learn something. But knee jerk reactions from uninformed positions look to the reader to be just sophmoric rants and nothing more....


The vitriol and hyperbole is clearly visible in your post(s). Liberal this and liberal that and talking about things occurring "behind closed doors". Leave that out and maybe you can get a reasonable dialog going. Lookit, "your side" is doing plenty behind closed doors that is adding to the detriment of our once great country, but I digress..

My views are not sopohmoric, in as much as yours are full of hot air, useless statistics and flat out misleading people into thinking that a scheme to pad a company's wallet is better than the status quo and entitlements.

HCSA's are flex funds that if you don't use them within the period you are signed up for, you lose it all. It is pretty much only good for people who are anticipating laser eye surgery, an upgrade to designer eyeglasses, and other minimal unanticipated health expenses. There's no way in hell someone can anticipate a major operation, so how can you be expected to put away tons of cash (which most middle class Americans do not have) only to lose it if they don't use it? Really, you mentioned three priorities, but if someone making say, 35K per year in NYC or San Francisco had to choose between food, shelter and healthcare, what do you think they have to choose?

Sorry if you think this is some knee jerk reaction and uninformed opinion, but sometimes the well off have a distorted view of reality and it takes practical views and subjective gut responses to bring them back from the Twilight Zone.

[cblakey1]

Whoa, whoa, whoa hold up a minute there. Talking healthcare for the most part I will take a doctors word. You are WAY off on the financial side of this whole "Rich/Poor" issue, sorry to say. I am a mortgage broker, I see peoples finances everyday. Some do real well, and some, hmm lets just say without people like me they would still be renting, because a bank would just say no.

You seem to think a 19% rise in income over 20 years is good? How about in that same 20 years an average nationwide of over 150% rise in house prices, 100% rise in fuel prices, over 100% rise in utilities. It is getting worse not better 19% is a joke. I see people with 65% debt to income ratios, let me clarify that a little debt to income is based off of the gross income versus the debt shown on the credit report. So that income is yet to be taxed say 25% Leaving utilities, gas, food, and ohh yeah if they can afford it and their job doesn't provide it healthcare. They are not buying mansions either maybe a 1200 square foot house for a 4 person family, and paying 40% of their actual income to the mortgage company, property tax, and hazard insurance, 15% to their car payment, and 10% to credit cards that are constantly rising because of their bad spending habits or maybe its because every month they are a little bit short and this hole each month is a little deeper. They are the working poor, no not living on the street poor, but living at the bottom end and wondering each month how they are gonna make it, which is highly stressful and causes more health problems. This is what most of the "conservative" politicians don't understand, because they just don't seem to grasp the concept, they think hell those people should stop being lazy go to Harvard and become a lawyer. The system makes it that if you are not absolutely poverty stricken you don't qualify for anything, assistance, insurance, or anything else. I am sorry I am not trying to start an arguement here but IMO that 19% is an absolute joke.

Amen Colossus. My industry, postsecondary education, sees the same thing. With conservative politicians trying to do away with student loan programs, it's just another debt to add to an ever increasing list of low/middle class expenditures.

Can you say lala land? :laugh:

[CompEng1]

I really want to see a Jim Lee style THING statue. All the Thing statues in the past have been Kirby era and it's time to see a rompin, stompin pile of orange rocks they way Jim Lee intended! I know this has nothing to do with healthcare but hey, if that were an easy thing to fix with some taxes here, and a fair system of pay there...it would have been done. All the arguements on this thread have some validity but they all have truck size holes in them too. Name one thing the govt. ever took control of (besides the military) that it has managed to successfully (financially and otherwise) implement?

[Confessor]

Whoa, whoa, whoa hold up a minute there. Talking healthcare for the most part I will take a doctors word. You are WAY off on the financial side of this whole "Rich/Poor" issue, sorry to say. I am a mortgage broker, I see peoples finances everyday. Some do real well, and some, hmm lets just say without people like me they would still be renting, because a bank would just say no.

You seem to think a 19% rise in income over 20 years is good?

Yes. Its better than 10%, or no growth. Again, I say we look around the world to see what real "poor" is. Besides, by and large, we are responsible for our own place in life. Not that there are not some exceptions to this...there are. But how many of the folks you speak of would be better off had they studied harder in highschool, went to night school, waited longer to have children, waited longer to get married (if they are), etc.

So you give a good response. I respect data. Thanks for that. But many of us are thinking of "poor" in the context of american standard of living. How many of the poorer clients you speak of have: cell phones, pagers, more than 1 car, cable TV, spend $$ on Christmas, etc. Not all, I am sure. But a person that has these things is not poor (at least in part) by happen chance. They are not managing their income, etc. wisely. And in the end, that's the individual's responsibility. Rugged individualism where we take responsibility for our own lot in life (as a rule, there are exceptions, I know) is a healthy creed to live by.

[Juggernaut]

My Mother does not have health insurance and she needs and operation. She makes a little to much to get any assistance, but not enough money to be able to afford health insurance. So this country sucks because someone who has worked all their life can't get help but some lazy as s can get assistance.

This country is great because I was raised by a loving mother who gave me a great head on my shoulders. Because of her I am able to have a good enough job and I sent her the $2,500 for the down payment for the surgery. Thank God the hospital will take payments after that...

So good and bad. What do you guys think about the whole insurance thing.

Its good that you had the money for the surgery. That whole health insurrance, health insurrance are not fair.

In Denmark it is free to get surgery. We pay for hospitals through taxes so everyone can have surgery if needed.

Some of our politicians wants the health insurrance in Denmark like in America.

But I would not like that because it will not be for everyone many people will suffer bacuse of it.

I guess your mom would suffer bacause of the health insurance, if you did not have the money. Its good that you could help your mom.

[Confessor]

The vitriol and hyperbole is clearly visible in your post(s). Liberal this and liberal that and talking about things occurring "behind closed doors"......

There's no vitriol or hyperbole (exaggeration) in the least. You may not be old enough, or weren't paying attn when Hilary was going through all those meetings about the hc socialization. But let me remind you (or inform you) that the "behind closed doors" comment was referring to things I thought that anyone posting a response would research prior to doing so. Namely, that even those of her own party were complaining that the mtgs she was heading for such a potentially momentous change (thankfully failed) were done secretly and "behind closed doors." Check your history b4 responding without knowing the facts.

My views are not sopohmoric, .... useless statistics and flat out misleading people into thinking that a scheme to pad a company's wallet is better than the status quo and entitlements.

???
scheme to pad a company's wallet? Heh. Study up more, friend. The worker wins b/c above what Ive already stated, he takes control of his own affairs and stimulates competition in the hc sys and that is what will affect positive change. The company wins b/c more $ goes to employees via higher salaries, more hiring capacity, more $ for investment/research/growth = more jobs, and the positive domino effect rolls on.



HCSA's are flex funds that if you don't use them within the period you are signed up for, you lose it all. ....

????

HCSA are NOT funds that are lost? Unless you are aware of some very odd version that is not the mainstream HCSA. You can pass these things on to your kids when you die, for cryin' out loud. They're not lost, any funds not used from yr to yr grows by the invested interest....TAX free. There is a way folks can anticipate the need for greater hc costs as they age....that's common sense. You prepare now for a "rainy day" like we all should in general.

[galactus]

HCSA are NOT funds that are lost? Unless you are aware of some very odd version that is not the mainstream HCSA. You can pass these things on to your kids when you die, for cryin' out loud. They're not lost, any funds not used from yr to yr grows by the invested interest....TAX free. There is a way folks can anticipate the need for greater hc costs as they age....that's common sense. You prepare now for a "rainy day" like we all should in general.

Does the current outline for this sort of program reduce your taxes like an IRA? In other words, if I were to contribute $250 a month of my gross income to this program (hence, accruing the $3000 deductable), would I receive a tax break on that $3000?

Edit: Ah, I just re-read that anything not used gains interest tax free. I would surmise that you don't get a tax benefit on your contributions then (this is set up like a Roth IRA, not a conventional one)

[Meteor Man]

The health system here in Europe isn't much better. We pay higher taxes so that we can have a better health system, when infact we have a health care not short of disasterous. My Mother is currently in Hospital and is just out from a serious operation. She was waiting almost a year for a bed, then she finally gets one and has to wait for three days before the operation (Consultant probably playing golf somewhere). Then they botch the operation and she has bleeding on the brain. Looks like she's going to have to stay in the IC unit for another 2 weeks before she gets the all clear.


Yeah, I've lived in Europe as well, and my experience with the health care system there was not good either. There are no easy answers to the nightmare that is modern health care, but I do know that here in the United States, people want a magic pill to take to cure every ailment, and they don't want to have to pay for it. Or, they just want everything to be a twenty dollar co-pay. We all need to do a better job of taking care of ourselves. Many of the sicknesses inthe US are self inflicted by incredibly poor personal health habits, so I think we could start there, but obviously there are many people who are very sick, and do need help. It's a huge problem..........

[Confessor]

Does the current outline for this sort of program reduce your taxes like an IRA? In other words, if I were to contribute $250 a month of my gross income to this program (hence, accruing the $3000 deductable), would I receive a tax break on that $3000?

Edit: Ah, I just re-read that anything not used gains interest tax free. I would surmise that you don't get a tax benefit on your contributions then (this is set up like a Roth IRA, not a conventional one)

I dont believe there's a tax credit (not that youre asking that). But the key is you put in, say whatever....5k. It grows compounded yr to yr and the interest gained grows tax free and can be spent on hc costs, which, if over a certain % of your salary, is a tax write-off. So all income contributed is like 15-38% (dep. on tax bracket) more money b/c it grows tax free, and is spent tax free. The $ amt in that hcsa is worth 15-38% more b/c taxes dont hit growth at all...from growth to the expendature.

But just imagine....youre a healthy guy and your hcsa grows yr to yr as you contribute a bit here and there, use it minimally (hopefully...here's to your health), and when the "typical" person needs it in his later yrs...viola! a large fund to cover yr to yr deductible that may very well not require contribution for some time due to the compounded savings.

Imagine: Your the one cutting your check from your fund (not some 3rd party) ins co for the deductible period in a given yr. and you are one of millions doing the same....you dont think that'll create competition that'll drive prices down? Yeah it will. Imagine:

What Dr. Confessor?!? You're gonna charge my wife xK for a breast reduction? Well, Dr. breast-for-less (lets say for arguement's sake that he's equally qualified/trained) down the street only charges 70% of your fee for the same thing. Can you match that, or do I walk?

Guess what: I prob. match it.

The same thing happens at hospitals eventually. Consumers will demand up front pricing for comparison shopping....consumer wins!

[The Watcher]

Man, if you cut through all the RW vitriol and hyperbole, you're basically saying that healthcare should only be available to those who can afford it.

Try tellin' Joe Sixpack in the midwest that he's gonna need to fork over the several hundred dollars for a wellness exam, or the single mother making 25k per year that all he kid's shots/checkups are on her until her high deductible is paid. There is something very wrong with asking already strapped people to put away money that they're not making to begin with.

Bad :banghead: bad :banghead: idea. :banghead:

Heck, I'd pay the 50% tax if it insured me a dr visit and a hospital stay when I need it. It's not like the gov't ain't whacking me for 30% or more now. That, plus the several hundred I pay to the "social" PMO, HMO (whatever the heck it is) for my wife and I each month more than accounts for that 50% that's supposed to be such a bad idea in Europe. Look, we got the infrastructure in place, why not model our health care system after Canada and try to make it better?

You're not a doctor, right? :rolleyes2

Bulls and Boi.. I wish good health to your moms!

I work in a 350-bed hospital about 25 miles south of the Canadian border. If you drove through our parking lot right now, you would see a lot of cars with Canadian license plates. They belong to Canadians who come to the U.S. to work or receive medical care. Canadian patients, most of whom pay out of their own pocket, come to the U.S. for treatment because it takes too long to receive medical care in the Canadian hospitals. Canadian nurses and other caregivers prefer working in the U.S. because they get better pay and working conditions.

[The Watcher]

This is a topic about which so much can be said. I hate to see personal stories like MB's (mom) when one is b/w a rock and a hardplace. And I sympathize and agree w/ many who state those working but not making a great deal have a headache (healthcare costs) that welfare folks dont have (as much of).

I am definitely NOT in favor of a govt. insurance plan (a la Europe, Canada, etc.) THAT is a disaster. It's very obvious to anyone who's studied both systems in detail. The socialist healthcare system (SHCS) is bankrupting socialist govts who use it. Ive worked in both and seen it from the inside. This is the system that Hilary tried (thankfully unsuccessfully) to instigate behind closed doors early in Clinton's first term.

CC: And Bush's creation of the Medicare Rx Drug plan is a disaster. But not the way, perhaps, that you mean. He stole the idea from the liberal socialists (US democrats) and called it his own....huge mistake....in order to sway voters. It should never have been done in any form. It is a disaster waiting to happen that is unsustainable. But the prob. is that he took a stupid liberal plan and tried to make it work....mistake. There's so much to say about this but I'd get carpal tunnel typing it all. So suffice to say, it stinks bigtime.

I think the answer here is HSA (Healthcare Savings Accounts). These are great and get health insurance back into the way it was supposed to work all along. Heath ins. should be for "catestrophic" health issues only. We westerners (US, Canada, Europe) think that "having ins" means (in many folks' minds) not paying for any healthcare. That's ridiculous. Think about it. You dont file auto ins. for a flat tire....or an oil change....or other routine issues. Only for "catestrophic" stuff.

Likewise, we ought to cover our own reg-MD checkups, shots/vaccines, etc. The HCSA system has a high deductible (3k, 5k 10k) but low premiums. The insured is responsible for saving up the deductible (but one can buy insurance even to cover you in case you have a "catestrophic need" b4 you've got that in the bank). You go to the MD and tap that acct as needed. Anything in a year over and above the ded. is covered by the ins. co. Some yrs you win, some you lose. But when you dont use your ded, it grows from yr to yr in an invested acct. And it grows tax free. And you can pass this to your heirs tax free, to be used for the same purpose.

Broad use of HCSA would do at least a couple of good things:

(1) It'd force us users to save and think of health ins the right way (see auto ins ex. above)

(2) Since the user is cutting a check at the MD ofc/hosp, he's acutely more aware of costs charged. So he's gonna shop around. This'll generate healthy competition amongst providers for the same service.....even various hospitals int he same town...and help keep costs down.

(3) It'd give us a tax free way to save now (as younger folks) for later (when we're older) when we'll need health care more.

In the end, though, we are each responsible for our own well being/care. We are responsible, I believe, to help those whom we love (family, etc.) when they're in a pinch (as MB so properly and clearly lovingly has done). Groups proclaiming to serve the public good charitably (churches, secular charities, etc.) should do their part as their mission statement(s) lead. But I don't thinkg the govt. ever did much efficiently on any issues. The govt. role should be very very limited....to be a bare bones safety net for those TRULY unable to care for themselves.....bare necessities only. Anything more runs us further down the path of a socialist, big brother govt. idea, where govt is supposed to cure all that ails us.....BAD move.

Personal responsibility. What a novel idea.

[The Watcher]

I Know that , and it is hard working people who fund that and if you're a lazy bum who does nothing all day you even get paid on our expenses ( wellfair )!!! People immigrate to Belgium just to profit that system ( not all ofcourse )

But that's also why I wrote in my first reply " Health is more important than anything else " , what means ; more important than statues or money ( although they come to a close second !! )

I work in a hospital; I see it every day as the regulars filter through the ER. Regulars are people who come in on a regular basis; they’re usually “drug seekers” (people who are addicted to pain medication), transients looking for shelter or people with mental health issues who haven’t been taking their medication.

Health care facilities are obligated to treat them. Some of the costs are underwritten as tax write-offs. Other costs are borne by patients and their families who are forced to pay exorbitant medical bills to make up for those that don’t pay into the system.

Abuse is rampant. One “regular” was notorious for calling the 911 dispatcher. He would usually call when the bars started to close and he didn’t want to pay for a taxi. He would fake an injury, ask for an ambulance and be taken to the hospital. After being “treated” by a physician, he would be given a coupon for a taxi and the taxi would take him anywhere he wanted to go. It was quite a scam. He was a transient and wasn’t in a hurry to get anywhere, he just liked the adventure. It didn’t bother him that he tied up a whole slew of emergency services.

I feel sorry for people who work hard, pay taxes and obey the rules and then are forced to take care of people who prey on society.

Those who abuse our healthcare system are just as bad as those who tie up our courts with frivolous lawsuits. They’re a drain on the system and a plague on society.

Just my opinion.

[madjazz]

Confessor and NBR3 made some interesting points.

HSA and FSA are two different animals. HSA works like an IRA and FSA is taking $ out of current income to be used during the calendar year (this year the peiod can extend into the next January). FSA $ ARE lost if they are not used in the allotted time.

Here's my take. Health Insurance used to be used for unplanned events. Legislation has made Health Insurance cover Birth Control, Chiropractology, Weight Loss, Substance Abuse, certain cosmetic procedures, and a variety of other things. Add to that a Judicial system that turns the slightest unfortunate event into a Lottery ticket.

Guess what? These things all cost money.

Legislation should be passed to enable Health Insurance to be broken out into 2 components - a catastophic portion and a supplemental portion. The Catastrophic portion should not cover things that are not directly related to bones being broken or organs failing. This would make the Catostrophic portion affordable to for businesses to give more employees.

The AMA needs to make the suit history and out-of-court settlements with Doctors more public and pull licenses quicker, and legislation needs to cap damages for Pain and Suffering.

Add these two things together and you will have impacted a major costing change.

Marvelboi - I hope things work out for your Mom.

[Nightwinger]

MarvelBoi---

A guy at work goes through some Catholic insurance agency. I was partly listening. He's not Cath. but because he lives in that city it's available to him.

He's laid off now. But someone at work talks to him periodically.

I'll try and track down the info. Maybe they have info for on e in your mom's
town. In the mean time maybe she can contact a local Catholic Diasis ( sorry
if spelled wrong). It's a step...............

On a funny note. I thought you were reffering to a Tattoo....... :laugh:

I had to reread your post.


I'll get back to you as soon as I can.

Your a great son to help her.

[Logan]

Marvelboi, please don't take this as an insult BUT why didn't you pay for your moms insurance if you love her so much. I saw certain posts from you stating you just bought art worth thousands. So why didn't you pay that little extra for your mom?


P.S If I'm not correct, please ignore this post :)

[Eye of Agamotto]

For services this fine Doctor pictured below accepts all forms of insurance and also any legal or illegal drugs and alchohol are considered forms of payment.

[Confessor]

Confessor and NBR3 made some interesting points.

HSA and FSA are two different animals. HSA works like an IRA and FSA is taking $ out of current income to be used during the calendar year (this year the peiod can extend into the next January). FSA $ ARE lost if they are not used in the allotted time.

Here's my take. Health Insurance used to be used for unplanned events. Legislation has made Health Insurance cover Birth Control, Chiropractology, Weight Loss, Substance Abuse, certain cosmetic procedures, and a variety of other things. Add to that a Judicial system that turns the slightest unfortunate event into a Lottery ticket.

Guess what? These things all cost money.

Legislation should be passed to enable Health Insurance to be broken out into 2 components - a catastophic portion and a supplemental portion. The Catastrophic portion should not cover things that are not directly related to bones being broken or organs failing. This would make the Catostrophic portion affordable to for businesses to give more employees.

The AMA needs to make the suit history and out-of-court settlements with Doctors more public and pull licenses quicker, and legislation needs to cap damages for Pain and Suffering.

Add these two things together and you will have impacted a major costing change.

Marvelboi - I hope things work out for your Mom.

Very well thought out and full of good ideas. I agree and my idea is that health ins be thought of like auto ins is (you dont file auto ins for an oil change), like I mentioned in a prev. post.

Good post, MJ.

[Nightwinger]

MB-here's what I was able to dig up.
Hope it helps....

www.Ohiofreeclinics.org

4 locations in Columbus-sorry,they didn't have adress or phone numbers


Clinic at Faith Mission
Physicians Free Clinic
Short North Health & Wellness
Vineyard Free Clinic