Moore and these AP's

[Bullseye]

I think that Moore Design is doing a diservice to the people who already have the original released statues by re-releasing minor IMO recasts of the same sculpt. A different base doesn't make a different sculpt IMO. Now the proposed new Kabuki looks different from the original release so thats fine. But why bother to make recasts and release them. I was lucky enough to get my AIX for a good price but others haven't been so fortunate. Can you imagine how these people will feel when after they have forked out $400+ for theirs only to be told there is a more rare version getting released which to all intense and purposes is the same sculpt. Come on Moore Design don't get lazy. Resculpt a new piece.

[Tetragrammaton]

Have pics of the "new" sculpts been released? I thought they were going to be somewhat different from the originals.

[wizard-comics]

...I think it's the biggest line of BS I heard about all of this is the "AP" reference. Just make edition size bigger instead of having 100+ APs. What the F*** is that about?! APs? Does anyone actually know what an AP really is anymore?...

....should rename them ACs for "Additional Castings"..."because we wanted to make it look like we made a small addition size and think your that stupid to believe there are 100 Artists Proofs out there"


...I love The Magdalena, one of my favorite statues. I Think Moore is one talented artist...but I think even he knows what a true AP is.....no sale here

[Ish]

i think that the reson for it to be called ap is so it doesn't become an extension of the original run, it separates it in collectors eyes, atleast for people that are into #'s, i for one am very happy about this 'cause now i have a chance of getting this awsome sculpt and not pay an arm and a leg, the original is always gonna be the original, and with a diffrent run name and base it could ratain it's value. jmho. :)

[Bullseye]

i think that the reson for it to be called ap is so it doesn't become an extension of the original run, it separates it in collectors eyes, atleast for people that are into #'s, i for one am very happy about this 'cause now i have a chance of getting this awsome sculpt and not pay an arm and a leg, the original is always gonna be the original, and with a diffrent run name and base it could ratain it's value. jmho. :)

I don't think so. I know some people have already sold off the original to buy the new AP when it comes out. Alot of that is to do with the possibility of the original loosing value.

[Ish]

I don't think so. I know some people have already sold off the original to buy the new AP when it comes out. Alot of that is to do with the possibility of the original loosing value.
speculations my friend, the market is unpredictable, there are always people that do this, selling a statue because there is gonna be a new release of the same character thus the original losing value, which is not always the case, there are others that are simply bored with the piece and want to refresh their collection, and other people are just plain dumb, me if i would've bought the original i would not be selling it and still get the ap.

[JSA]

I thought Mr. Moore said that his AP pieces would all be new sculpts, so it shouldn't
bother the value of the originals. I do agree though in some cases - just slapping a
different color on a bust or statue and calling it an AP or making a super-duper limited
edition (grey hulk) can cause havoc sometimes, but it is the nature of the business I
guess, so I just pick and choose what I get by what I like, and I'm happy most of the time.

JS

[Bullseye]

speculations my friend, the market is unpredictable, there are always people that do this, selling a statue because there is gonna be a new release of the same character thus the original losing value, which is not always the case, there are others that are simply bored with the piece and want to refresh their collection, and other people are just plain dumb, me if i would've bought the original i would not be selling it and still get the ap.

Could be but why not a new piece like the proposed Kabuki one. I'd be interested in buying a new AIX if it were a different sculpt.

[Ish]

I thought Mr. Moore said that his AP pieces would all be new sculpts, so it shouldn't
bother the value of the originals. I do agree though in some cases - just slapping a
different color on a bust or statue and calling it an AP or making a super-duper limited
edition (grey hulk) can cause havoc sometimes, but it is the nature of the business I
guess, so I just pick and choose what I get by what I like, and I'm happy most of the time.

JS
only a diffrent base with more stuff on it.

this is done by every company in one way or another, and the zombies still go out and buy it. :laugh: btw you forgot gold plated garabage. :D

[Ish]

Could be but why not a new piece like the proposed Kabuki one. I'd be interested in buying a new AIX if it were a different sculpt.
listen if after the ap comes out the original loses value i'll buy it from you, hows that? ;) :eplus2: :laugh:

[Bullseye]

listen if after the ap comes out the original loses value i'll buy it from you, hows that?

Not interested in selling only in buying new sculpts. :D Is minimum effort maximum profit always a good thing. :peoples:

[Ish]

Not interested in selling only in buying new sculpts. :D Is minimum effort maximum profit always a good thing. :peoples:
:laugh: :laugh:

[carrillj]

The AP's don't bother me at all, but I think it's worth pointing out that the original Aphrodite statue is already losing value. Months ago they were selling for $550-$600, but now they average about $435. I'm sure the price will drop even further once the AP's are released.

Moore did mention that the original run was never completed, so the edition size is much lower than what's written under the base. The AP's will just add a few more on the market, but I don't see anything wrong with that.

[risingstar]

They shouldn't be called APs though... APs are editions of 10-25 that are usually set aside for VIPs and so on prior to the release of the original run. Creating APs years after the original piece sold out sounds off to me...

If Moore wants to "reprint", "recast", or "rerelease" the statue or whatever the correct term is, he should just say so. Sometimes this all looks like a dancing of words. Call it for what it is.

While I have no doubt this rarer edition will sell out quickly, I can see how some collectors would be upset for having paid $500 for the Magdalena only to see a much rarer version be offered for half that price.

JMO :)

[Ish]

i read somewhere that moore was supposed to do a bigger run according to his licence but he didn't, so this ap is honoring that, but i could've missunderstood, it should be on one of those questions for moore threads. :)

[d rod]

When the original piece came it, it was already known that an AP series was going to be released. I don't see what the surprise is. Take a look at BD, Sideshow and GG. They don't sell AP's but sell variants of tons of pieces. I mean tons and tons. Every other month there's a paint variant for BD. GG has how many clone and storm trooper versions? Then add the Fetts and Vaders. Sideshow has an exclusive for just about every piece now as well. But when a small company does it, there seems to be an uproar. I'm not saying it is right for them to do that but by now I think we should know this is a norm in the industry. I don't remember reading in the forum sections of the companies mentioned above about how upset we are that their latest piece has a variant. Might not be called an AP but it's a variant.

[Bullseye]

Yeah but the variant is released at the same time not a year or so after. When the value of an item can be reduced by basically a re-release.

[d rod]

the same can be said about the bowen bucky and wolverine busts. they are actually repaints which came along much farther ahead of the original busts. the only difference were repaints. were the manufacturers concerned about the value change of the original? not really. they don't worry about the secondary market. same goes for the exclusive angel and red iron fist. i would guess that the rots clone trooper busts would be considered in the same category as well from the original ones as well. what can be said about those?

[Bullseye]

I completely agree with you on the Bowen stuff. Its a cheap way of releasing a variant. But MD is not releasing the same amount of stuff as BD. I really really like what Clay is doing sculpt wise and character wise but I hope he doesn't fall into the same trap as the other guys like Bowen have. If its a variant then call it a variant. AP's are considered rare pieces of the same sculpt. A Cave Troll FS AP doesn't have a different base.

[candyrocket786]

I've been doing this collectible thing for about 16 years now and there are two things I've learned.

1. Nothing is truly limited.
2. The collector's market is not very stable.

If you guys haven't learned that by now.... then I don't know what to tell you.

For starters, you made the choice to dump $400 on this statue. Just like some people made the choice to dump $600 on Phasing Vision or $300 on Gold Bucky...both which were variants.

Guess what? Phasing Vision is not holding it's value and I think GB is doing the same.

Bowen plans to "revisit" previous Phase I characters with new sculpts. What do you think that's going to do to the value of your original Phase I statues?

They are going to reduce the secondary market value of the originals...simply because they are "cheaper alternatives" (ie. substitutes) to the "higher priced" originals.

Don't even get me started on SS. :rolleyes2

I am looking forward to the AIX release. I missed out on the first and I am not about to dump $400 on the original.

[bat_collector]

And don't forget the Water Tower Spidey.

Come one BD and GG have made a fortune off slight repaints. And don't get upset, bullseye, you got the piece for retail last september.

If its good enough for the goose, its good enough for the gander.

[Statuesque Fellow]

I think that Moore Design is doing a diservice to the people who already have the original released statues by re-releasing minor IMO recasts of the same sculpt. A different base doesn't make a different sculpt IMO. Now the proposed new Kabuki looks different from the original release so thats fine. But why bother to make recasts and release them. I was lucky enough to get my AIX for a good price but others haven't been so fortunate. Can you imagine how these people will feel when after they have forked out $400+ for theirs only to be told there is a more rare version getting released which to all intense and purposes is the same sculpt. Come on Moore Design don't get lazy. Resculpt a new piece.

Why should anyone care about someone else that decided to pay a crazy inflated aftermarket price for a statue? If they decide to do that, it's their decision. If they've been around long enough, they know the risks of buying collectibles. Only a very slim percentage hold their value for very long. If they are experienced collectors, they know the drill. If they are newbies, it will be a lesson well learned. Why should the rest of us suffer to protect some other guys investment. BTW - it's the same principle w/1st, 2nd, 3rd printings of comics.

[Collection King 13]

I cant wait for this AP to be released!

[Statuesque Fellow]

i read somewhere that moore was supposed to do a bigger run according to his licence but he didn't, so this ap is honoring that, but i could've missunderstood, it should be on one of those questions for moore threads. :)

The original run was quoted at being something ridiculous like 10,000. Does anyone believe there are 10,000 of these things floating around?

[Collection King 13]

10,000 AIX statues? No... The run says 4,000 but the rumor is that only 1,000 made it out....

[Perna]

I really don't see the big problem about this. If the AP's were mentioned as a project when the original run was being produced then no one should be surprised about it. I realize collectors want what they paid for, but as mentioned before, variants, re-paints and the such seem to be the norm nowadays so the value of your $500.00 statue/bust is never going to stay that way.

[pppccclll]

it's not like someone stole their $400+

[wizard-comics]

When the original piece came it, it was already known that an AP series was going to be released. I don't see what the surprise is. Take a look at BD, Sideshow and GG. They don't sell AP's but sell variants of tons of pieces. I mean tons and tons. Every other month there's a paint variant for BD. GG has how many clone and storm trooper versions? Then add the Fetts and Vaders. Sideshow has an exclusive for just about every piece now as well. But when a small company does it, there seems to be an uproar. I'm not saying it is right for them to do that but by now I think we should know this is a norm in the industry. I don't remember reading in the forum sections of the companies mentioned above about how upset we are that their latest piece has a variant. Might not be called an AP but it's a variant.

what ticks me off is passing them off as APs...that is not what they are

[Collection King 13]

what ticks me off is passing them off as APs...that is not what they are
I agree.. So maybe they should just call them Extremely Limited Runs???

[vonlavert]

I agree with one thing here for sure. Calling it an Artist Proof was a bad choice. Because it takes away from what an artist proof truely is or "was". I personaly hate the recycling of the same sculpt by these companies. For me it all started way back when Bowen rereleased His Doc Savage bust as a retooled model kit called "War" When I saw it originally I was like what the F is he doing. Then the old Abe Sapien bust became Triton of the Inhumans. Whenever I see it I just think "Really, you could'nt sculpt a new 5 inch bust of this character ?" They have been all doing it for a long time now and it has become a part of the business side of things. Anyone remember the Gemstone editions that Moore put out? It is how you look at it I guess. They could argue that it is helping to fund other sculpts and grow the business for the collector and "Hey, no one is making you buy it." Buttttttt, for the collector it kind of sucks and eventually you just stop buying as many pieces or any from them at all. But eventually that is gonna happen anyway to most of us. I think I have more statues in boxes now then I do on display. I am currently trying to decide whether to or not to buy every Bowen Bust, as I have been form the start. I stopped on the full size statues a while ago and only buy the ones that I really am impressed by. I passed on the Vision but would like to get it now to go with the Scarlet Witch. I likely would have bought the Phasing Vision but found out about it too late. I did order the Classic Spiderman variant recently as I like the sculpt but never got around to buying it. Ask yourself this. IF you were in charge of Bowen Designs and you could make some fast money with a variant would you? I would like to think I would not, but who knows when this will all crash. Lets face it Marvel has gone crazy with the licensing again. There are two companies releasing the same take on Marvel characters within months of each other. I might as well go back and resculpt the Batman Gargoyle piece that kicked this all off. Oh well, just some thoughts. Maybe they should call them the ULTIMATE editions, Directors cut or put the year after the sculpt name or dvd editon!!!!! lol
cheers, M

[wizard-comics]

The AP's don't bother me at all, but I think it's worth pointing out that the original Aphrodite statue is already losing value. Months ago they were selling for $550-$600, but now they average about $435. I'm sure the price will drop even further once the AP's are released.

Moore did mention that the original run was never completed, so the edition size is much lower than what's written under the base. The AP's will just add a few more on the market, but I don't see anything wrong with that.

but it should, These are not true APs...which true APs used to be a collection in there own right.. I don't think your seeing the full ramifactions...I pick up a original Magadalena at $500.....then say it is re-released and called an AP or whatever crap they stick on it....Magdalena is then worth $300.00 or less...I can't beileve you wouldn't see anything wrong with that...and where does it stop? maybe in a few years another casting is put out again...dropping the price more...

I'm just using the Magdalena as an example, I know that the one coming out will be different than the original. I'm talking about the re-release of statues. This would have a HUGE impact on the industry if we, as the consumers, let this fly.

a bunch of people rally Bowen to re-release his orignial Marvel MB because the first ones cost to much...what then happens to your investment?

Re-Sculpts/Re-paints are great and should be released (although I'm not the biggest fan of a later released re-paint..borderline BS to me)....and it helps bring more peeps into this high dollar hobby.....and by doing that you keep the value of what came before up and on the rise....but to release the same thing, and slap the term AP on it is some BS

[d rod]

wiz- i don't anyone is disagreeing with you. but what's the difference if you call it AP or "x stripe" version? nothing. point is that big manufacturers have been doing it for years and with lines that they have a lot more to choose from (as in a variant vs a new character ). you take a marvel or star wars variant and you take one from a secondary license. the secondary license is so limited in successful characters that you are forced to done more version variations than something like star wars or marvel. not to pick on bowen but take wolverine for example. he did 2 statue version and one had a paint variant. then he did 5 busts which one was a gold base variant, the other a paint variant released at the same time. the fourth a variant look and the fifth a few years later w/a different costume. all were the same though. no uproar there. i don't say there should be an uproar because as many stated, it seems to be a norm. what i do say is why pick on one manufacturer out of the whole lot?
we can sit here and give examples of how many do this and to what extent but the bottom line is that regardless what you call it and when you release it, it could happen. therefore, you need to keep it in mind before you pay an arm and a leg for it. all in all, never pay too much because eventually, it will go down in price.

[Daredevil]

In the end, buy what you like and don't worry about the prices. Nothing stays up in p rice, with the exception of Chrome SS.

[Car50n]

In the end, buy what you like and don't worry about the prices. Nothing stays up in p rice, with the exception of Chrome SS.

word!

[Ish]

When the original piece came it, it was already known that an AP series was going to be released. I don't see what the surprise is. Take a look at BD, Sideshow and GG. They don't sell AP's but sell variants of tons of pieces. I mean tons and tons. Every other month there's a paint variant for BD. GG has how many clone and storm trooper versions? Then add the Fetts and Vaders. Sideshow has an exclusive for just about every piece now as well. But when a small company does it, there seems to be an uproar. I'm not saying it is right for them to do that but by now I think we should know this is a norm in the industry. I don't remember reading in the forum sections of the companies mentioned above about how upset we are that their latest piece has a variant. Might not be called an AP but it's a variant.
that's what i said, everybody does it, and it's perfectly fine.

companies are seeing more and more that there is alot of money going around in the aftermarket, so it's only natural(being that they're all trying to make money) that they would do whatever they can to get in on the action.

[Ish]

In the end, buy what you like and don't worry about the prices. Nothing stays up in p rice, with the exception of Chrome SS.
even that has come down at times.

[Bullseye]

Do you think the people who were lucky enough to have gotten one of the 50 Grey Hulk/Spidey SS pieces would be happy if they decided to release another couple of hundred at SDCC? When one has sold on ebay for $1400. I don't think so. This issue is a matter of protecting your collection. Again this was not a thread to point out other companies who obviously like 'maximising profit with minimal effort'. Sideshow did this with the Doom statue and I wasn't happy. Does this make me selfish? Maybe but i don't consider myself to be a selfish person. But let me have one or two rare pieces in my collection PLEASE.:)

[Ish]

Do you think the people who were lucky enough to have gotten one of the 50 Grey Hulk/Spidey SS pieces would be happy if they decided to release another couple of hundred at SDCC? When one has sold on ebay for $1400. I don't think so. This issue is a matter of protecting your collection. Again this was not a thread to point out other companies who obviously like 'maximising profit with minimal effort'. Sideshow did this with the Doom statue and I wasn't happy. Does this make me selfish? Maybe but i don't consider myself to be a selfish person. But let me have one or two rare pieces in my collection PLEASE.:)
the last thing oviously on companies minds is if people are unhappy with a move like that, you bought one they got your money, they are trying to reach that guy that doesn't have it(can't hate them for that), is it gonna hurt the hooby in the end? hell yes it will.

[Bullseye]

is it gonna hurt the hooby in the end? hell yes it will.
I agree. If you make a limited item easier to get then it defeats the purpose. I love collecting but i also like the fact that something i own is limited. I would say 90% of people feel the same way.

[Collection King 13]

Do you think the people who were lucky enough to have gotten one of the 50 Grey Hulk/Spidey SS pieces would be happy if they decided to release another couple of hundred at SDCC? When one has sold on ebay for $1400. I don't think so. This issue is a matter of protecting your collection. Again this was not a thread to point out other companies who obviously like 'maximising profit with minimal effort'. Sideshow did this with the Doom statue and I wasn't happy. Does this make me selfish? Maybe but i don't consider myself to be a selfish person. But let me have one or two rare pieces in my collection PLEASE.:)
You are comparing apples to oranges.... with AIX it was announced that there would be an AP run... the grey hulk has just one run limited to 50... Nothing else was announced...

[candyrocket786]

Do you think the people who were lucky enough to have gotten one of the 50 Grey Hulk/Spidey SS pieces would be happy if they decided to release another couple of hundred at SDCC? When one has sold on ebay for $1400. I don't think so. This issue is a matter of protecting your collection. Again this was not a thread to point out other companies who obviously like 'maximising profit with minimal effort'. Sideshow did this with the Doom statue and I wasn't happy. Does this make me selfish? Maybe but i don't consider myself to be a selfish person. But let me have one or two rare pieces in my collection PLEASE.:)

In order to "protect your collection" you need to be in 100% control of the market forces.... which is IMPOSSIBLE!

[candyrocket786]

You are comparing apples to oranges.... with AIX it was announced that there would be an AP run... the grey hulk has just one run limited to 50... Nothing else was announced...

Actually... was there any formal annoucement to the Grey Hulk? Never heard about it in the newsletter.

[Bullseye]

Actually... was there any formal annoucement to the Grey Hulk? Never heard about it in the newsletter.

it was hinted at in the Podcast.

[comicbkguy]

A few notes about this, and please try and understand I am trying to enlighten instead of starting fights here, please don't take offense:

1. As it is has been pointed out, this A.P. on AIX has been in the works from the beginning. Due to problems with the old company it was delayed. This is being done to fulfill an obligation with the licensor who we have very good relations with and are continuing to do other pieces with.

2. As far as resculpting a new AIX, that is very unrealistic. I don't even believe the book is being published anymore. We have always taken into account a property's status when considering production. Take for example the X-Files figures. Now I don't want to get into the entire odyssey that discussing those entails, but essentially it amounts to when the show was cancelled we stopped working on the figures. There is alot more to that story, but that is what it boils down to. Now to anyone who would say "then why produce an A.P. now?" I would say that is a legitimate question. But in answer I would say see point #1 above.

3. It is important to know that we aren't going to make a mint on 350 pieces. This isn't being done just to grab a few extra bucks. The truth is this, and it isn't a widely known fact, very rarely does a sold-out piece equal a piece that has completed its production run. Maybe I shouldn't be telling you guys this, but I want everyone to come to terms with what is happening here. I can count the number of pieces that have actually completed their run and had the molds destroyed on one hand. I don't know how things are done at other companies, but I would guess they would be similar. We only have x number of pieces produced and then if they sell out we evaluate the current demand before deciding to produce more, which we almost never do even when we could sell several hundred more pieces. If we really wanted to make a ton of money on AIX we would just run another 800 or so, we could do that and still be within the defined production run. The reason we don't do that is that Clay has always told me that he takes providing some protection to the secondary market very seriously. He has always tried to balance running a business with keeping his collectors happy. And generally you guys are pretty happy with him so I will let things stand at that.

4. It is true that technically what we are producing isn't an A.P. We have always known this. But to argue that our terminology is dangerous to the secondary market in some way is a bit strange. If anything I would think that producing them in a separate numbered set helps protect the value of the original run to some degree at least. Floating another 350 in the original numbered run could only devalue the original. And as far as setting some kind of destructive trend I would also disagree with this. The concept of the A.P. is most often found in fine art lithographs, and I doubt very seroiusly that these people are taking a cue from us. I would doubt that they would change what they do anytime soon. Certainly our terminology has been bastardized a bit, but to argue against the A.P. for this reason is definitely splitting hairs. And we do insist on a higher quality paint job and inspect A.P. very closely for defects and problems which is basically the same spirit as an A.P. of a litho.

5. The secondary market is always in flux, as has been been stated previously. And while I understand your concerns and can see why you would be upset please try and understand that what we have done is try to keep all parties happy here. We didn't elect to go with the "nuclear option" of running a large quantity, though I am fairly certain that we could have sold all or most of them. We are releasing enough to fulfill our obligations, but a small enough number so that it will hopefully not drive down the price of the original by a dramatic amount. I think the 350 of these that will be done will be devoured rather quickly and you will still see people trying very hard to get either version a year after the A.P. release. And selling your current piece to buy an A.P. is understandable, but not without risks. I would only do it if you are 100% certain that you have a reliable source for the A.P. It will probably be allocated pretty heavily at only 350 pieces.

So in conclusion to Bullseye and others like him, I watch these boards way more than I should. I have seen that you are unhappy with the decision and Clay knows it. We do take what you guys say into account when we make our decisions. So message received, and I hope you understand our position a bit better now.

Oh one other thing. I usually don't use a lot of first person when talking about C S Moore Studios. I am only a freelancer for them after all. But so much of this goes back to the old Moore Creations days that I did use alot of we and our in this post. Just wanted to let everyone know why.

[dfchang]

There is honestly so much juvenile complaining on this board sometimes.

Give me a freaking break, 350 pieces will disappear into the secondary market. Less than a year out, people will be killing themselves for the A IX statues. Separating the 350 into an AP line protects the original statue even more.

There is no conceivable way that this decision will impact price points in ANY way and this will be proven in a year.

I'd want to buy an Aphrodite IX AP anyway just because it is an AP and an awesome statue and I own an original. I guarantee there will be 349 others like me. There's probably a few dozen on this forum alone.

So to CS Moore and his staff, I would lose NOOOO sleep over the b**t**ching on this one . . .

Dennis

[ComputerFly]

Bravo cmkbkguy! Very well stated. I am one that is new this year, to statue collecting, and I'm also one that paid $500 for an AIX on eBay recently. Do I wish the statue was a totally new sculpt? Absolutely, for two reasons:

1) I don't want to lose value on my recent $500 purchase

And more importantly,

2) I think this is a great character and wish it was a brand new statue that would blow my mind all over again.


However, think about this. Most of the people who are going to be all over this new statue are the collectors here on this site. It's going to be a fight to get one anyway. So it's not like there's going to be any significant quantity floating around the 'net. I'm going to try my damn'dest to get one.

Bulls, you said you wanted 'one or two rare pieces in your collection', well, here's your chance. You want rare, I've got an AIX #927 that snuck out of the factory without the 'IX' tattoo. How many of those are floating around? (being facetious). (Bulls, still going to send me those photos?)

[boondocksaint]

i cant wait to get this ap!

[nexus]

I really cannot understand why they are not doing new sculpts, especially AIX (I don't know what the plan is for Magdelena, but I don't think that goes for as much on the secondary market). My problem is not with losing a couple hundred dollars on a particular statue's value. I for one have no interest in buying the same piece different base. Now if it was a different paint job (like soulfire Grace) that might be different. If it was a completely different pose there's be a 99% chance buying it. It would be great for everyone -- collectors who bought the original and MC, who would have another hot product on its hands.

[candyrocket786]

I really cannot understand why they are not doing new sculpts, especially AIX (I don't know what the plan is for Magdelena, but I don't think that goes for as much on the secondary market). It really does seem like a money grab. My problem is not with losing a couple hundred dollars on a particular statue's value. I for one have no interest in buying the same piece different base. Now if it was a different paint job (like soulfire Grace) that might be different. If it was a completely different pose there's be a 99% chance buying it. It would be great for everyone -- collectors who bought the original and MC, who would have another hot product on its hands.

comicbkguy already explained it.

I think this is pretty much a dead issue now.

[nexus]

Why not a repaint like Soulfire?
Ultimately, I don't really care. it's just one statue and whether we have an original or an AP it won't make much of a difference. But I'm just saying that a repaint is the only way I might have any interest in it.

[candyrocket786]

Why not a repaint like Soulfire?
Ultimately, I don't really care. it's just one statue and whether we have an original or an AP it won't make much of a difference. But I'm just saying that a repaint is the only way I might have any interest in it.

In the end... AIX AP statue will sell out immediately.

Both fans and flippers will make a mad rush for it.

It wouldn't surprise me that the same people b!tchin about this AIX issue will be the ones to flip it first. :laugh:

[nexus]

In the end... AIX AP statue will sell out immediately.

Both fans and flippers will make a mad rush for it.

It wouldn't surprise me that the same people b!tchin about this AIX issue will be the ones to flip it first. :laugh:

I'm sure there will be a lot of flippers going for this one. Oh well. I'll have to watch that one from the sidelines. It would be nice to see a different paint job though, because I would buy (hmmm, maybe I'll buy and have it or the original repainted). :laugh:

Oh, and I deleted "money grab" from the earlier post because it seemed rather harsh. My apologies.

[Clayburn S Moore]

only a diffrent base with more stuff on it.

this is done by every company in one way or another, and the zombies still go out and buy it. :laugh: btw you forgot gold plated garabage. :D

An AP was originally begun when prints were done as lithographs-drawing done in grease pencil on stone, hence the name "litho" for stone and "graph" for writing. The AP was done as the artist printed the edition. It took several prints for the stone to properly take the ink and those first prints are Artist Proofs. Later, when paintings were done as prints, the first ones were taken off the presses for the artist to check and those were reserved for the artist as...yes, Artist's Proofs.
Artist Proofs in the comic book statue business are not really artist's proofs, they are second editions or variants. As I explained before, this is a business and we always had planned to do an Artist's Proof Edition of A IX. I work with top Cow and they expect me to earn them royalties. The edition will be done. As I have explained, we only did 1,400 of the original edition. I could do 1,100 more of that piece. I'm not doing that, but the AP edition will be produced at 350 units. It will have a new base and a certificate of authenticity. I do not want or expect those who bought the first to buy the second. If anyone thinks that 350 units will destroy the value of the first edition then this is a very, very small group of collectors and all of us sculptors should get new careers.

[Clayburn S Moore]

but it should, These are not true APs...which true APs used to be a collection in there own right.. I don't think your seeing the full ramifactions...I pick up a original Magadalena at $500.....then say it is re-released and called an AP or whatever crap they stick on it....Magdalena is then worth $300.00 or less...I can't beileve you wouldn't see anything wrong with that...and where does it stop? maybe in a few years another casting is put out again...dropping the price more...

I'm just using the Magdalena as an example, I know that the one coming out will be different than the original. I'm talking about the re-release of statues. This would have a HUGE impact on the industry if we, as the consumers, let this fly.

a bunch of people rally Bowen to re-release his orignial Marvel MB because the first ones cost to much...what then happens to your investment?

Re-Sculpts/Re-paints are great and should be released (although I'm not the biggest fan of a later released re-paint..borderline BS to me)....and it helps bring more peeps into this high dollar hobby.....and by doing that you keep the value of what came before up and on the rise....but to release the same thing, and slap the term AP on it is some BS

I don't know or care what other comapnies will do, but I will do an AP or second or variant edition and in most cases that is all, unless I do a special edition with this site. As Danny can tell you, I have already expressed reservations about any more than a regular edition and an AP, which in most cases would be a partly re-sculpted. Maybe not in every case, but I will make that determination when the time comes. If you are so concerned with this and you think that every person producing these statues is a money grubbing scum, then I suggest you rethink of what hobby to partake in.

[Clayburn S Moore]

In the end, buy what you like and don't worry about the prices. Nothing stays up in p rice, with the exception of Chrome SS.

Thank you, Daredevil. I say this again and again. Buy what you like. Don't try to be a completist. Speculation has no place in this business or in art, but it is going to happen. Anyone who buys to speculate is making a mistake. If you buy a piece becuase you like it and it goes up in value, then that is very nice.

[Clayburn S Moore]

A few notes about this, and please try and understand I am trying to enlighten instead of starting fights here, please don't take offense:

1. As it is has been pointed out, this A.P. on AIX has been in the works from the beginning. Due to problems with the old company it was delayed. This is being done to fulfill an obligation with the licensor who we have very good relations with and are continuing to do other pieces with.

2. As far as resculpting a new AIX, that is very unrealistic. I don't even believe the book is being published anymore. We have always taken into account a property's status when considering production. Take for example the X-Files figures. Now I don't want to get into the entire odyssey that discussing those entails, but essentially it amounts to when the show was cancelled we stopped working on the figures. There is alot more to that story, but that is what it boils down to. Now to anyone who would say "then why produce an A.P. now?" I would say that is a legitimate question. But in answer I would say see point #1 above.

3. It is important to know that we aren't going to make a mint on 350 pieces. This isn't being done just to grab a few extra bucks. The truth is this, and it isn't a widely known fact, very rarely does a sold-out piece equal a piece that has completed its production run. Maybe I shouldn't be telling you guys this, but I want everyone to come to terms with what is happening here. I can count the number of pieces that have actually completed their run and had the molds destroyed on one hand. I don't know how things are done at other companies, but I would guess they would be similar. We only have x number of pieces produced and then if they sell out we evaluate the current demand before deciding to produce more, which we almost never do even when we could sell several hundred more pieces. If we really wanted to make a ton of money on AIX we would just run another 800 or so, we could do that and still be within the defined production run. The reason we don't do that is that Clay has always told me that he takes providing some protection to the secondary market very seriously. He has always tried to balance running a business with keeping his collectors happy. And generally you guys are pretty happy with him so I will let things stand at that.

4. It is true that technically what we are producing isn't an A.P. We have always known this. But to argue that our terminology is dangerous to the secondary market in some way is a bit strange. If anything I would think that producing them in a separate numbered set helps protect the value of the original run to some degree at least. Floating another 350 in the original numbered run could only devalue the original. And as far as setting some kind of destructive trend I would also disagree with this. The concept of the A.P. is most often found in fine art lithographs, and I doubt very seroiusly that these people are taking a cue from us. I would doubt that they would change what they do anytime soon. Certainly our terminology has been bastardized a bit, but to argue against the A.P. for this reason is definitely splitting hairs. And we do insist on a higher quality paint job and inspect A.P. very closely for defects and problems which is basically the same spirit as an A.P. of a litho.

5. The secondary market is always in flux, as has been been stated previously. And while I understand your concerns and can see why you would be upset please try and understand that what we have done is try to keep all parties happy here. We didn't elect to go with the "nuclear option" of running a large quantity, though I am fairly certain that we could have sold all or most of them. We are releasing enough to fulfill our obligations, but a small enough number so that it will hopefully not drive down the price of the original by a dramatic amount. I think the 350 of these that will be done will be devoured rather quickly and you will still see people trying very hard to get either version a year after the A.P. release. And selling your current piece to buy an A.P. is understandable, but not without risks. I would only do it if you are 100% certain that you have a reliable source for the A.P. It will probably be allocated pretty heavily at only 350 pieces.

So in conclusion to Bullseye and others like him, I watch these boards way more than I should. I have seen that you are unhappy with the decision and Clay knows it. We do take what you guys say into account when we make our decisions. So message received, and I hope you understand our position a bit better now.

Oh one other thing. I usually don't use a lot of first person when talking about C S Moore Studios. I am only a freelancer for them after all. But so much of this goes back to the old Moore Creations days that I did use alot of we and our in this post. Just wanted to let everyone know why.

As usual, Michael has explained this very well and very eloquently. Thank you for the thoughtful and insightful response.

[heykool69]

Very well summarized.
That's why i buy what i like without breaking my bank account. I was never able to get an AIX by the price they're going for on Ebay. So hopefully i can purchase the AP version, eventhough i still like the original. And if i happen to be that #351, then i'll move on to other statue i like.

[SARPEDON]

you can never go wrong when you buy something you like. i am not a completist and am a very picky fellow when it comes to purchasing a statue
it allows me to sleep better at night.

[risingstar]

So when can the AIX and Magdalena be ordered?

[Tetragrammaton]

This is more of a question for D Rod or a Mod in the know, but I am assuming, hoping really, that the Magdalena and Aphrodite IX APs are part of the Moore Statue Club items?

As long as C. Moore keeps making great statues, I'll keep buying regardless of edition sizes, speculation, and what we call them.