Boston Red Sox

[OneOne78]

Just when I thought paying 20 Million dollars for the rights to talk to someone who has never thrown a pitch in the Majors was ridiculos, along come the Boston Red Sox. :rolleyes:
http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20061113&content_id=1739983&vkey=hotstove2006&fext=.jsp

[Underdog07]

Yep. Although PGammons and Buster Olney make 3 good points:

There are three reasons the deal would make sense for the Red Sox:

• Talent evaluators who have seen Matsuzaka say he's a top of the rotation-quality pitcher who would improve the Red Sox staff.

• If Boston signs him it would effectively plant a Red Sox flag in the growing Far East market.

• By merely winning the bidding the Red Sox would block the Yankees from acquiring Matsuzaka. By signing him, they would gain the same kind of advantage the Yankees gained when they signed Johnny Damon away from Boston.

Point 2 needs to be elaborated a little - both NYY and Sea saw mktg increases by entering the Japanese market. Boston likely would see a similar increase.

[Alex655321]

Yep. Although PGammons and Buster Olney make 3 good points:

There are three reasons the deal would make sense for the Red Sox:

• Talent evaluators who have seen Matsuzaka say he's a top of the rotation-quality pitcher who would improve the Red Sox staff.

• If Boston signs him it would effectively plant a Red Sox flag in the growing Far East market.

• By merely winning the bidding the Red Sox would block the Yankees from acquiring Matsuzaka. By signing him, they would gain the same kind of advantage the Yankees gained when they signed Johnny Damon away from Boston.

Point 2 needs to be elaborated a little - both NYY and Sea saw mktg increases by entering the Japanese market. Boston likely would see a similar increase.

All good points.
Hope he is a bust:D

[Tony Coca]

All good points.
Hope he is a bust:D

If he's in Boston he probably be the next Hideki Irabu.:laugh:

[The General]

Desperate move by the Sawx. Too much of a gamble. No way should this guy get Johan money. Forget Johan, when you add the money you had to pay to talk to him and the contract he's going to demand when you factor that all in he's going to be making Arod money.

[Sniper]

the contract he's going to demand when you factor that all in he's going to be making Arod money.

I wish he would make more so when the spotlight can shift away from Arod on to another person who has the biggest contract....:mad:

[Cage]

The Yankees Suck.

[Underdog07]

I wish he would make more so when the spotlight can shift away from Arod on to another person who has the biggest contract....:mad:

Never happen, regardless of whether someone gets a larger contract.

ARod doesn't produce, pure and simple. For example, I once saw him strike out with a runner on second base! He's never hit 400 or won the triple crown. Only 2 MVP awards. Never a 50-50 season. Youngest player to 400 HRs. None of that means anything in my eyes because of the one strike out.

[OneOne78]

All good points.
Hope he is a bust:DStill not worth it....JMO.

[OneOne78]

Never happen, regardless of whether someone gets a larger contract.

ARod doesn't produce, pure and simple. For example, I once saw him strike out with a runner on second base! He's never hit 400 or won the triple crown. Only 2 MVP awards. Never a 50-50 season. Youngest player to 400 HRs. None of that means anything in my eyes because of the one strike out.
Don't forget the fact he can't bunt :laugh:

[Underdog07]

Don't forget the fact he can't bunt :laugh:

And he has absolutely ZERO saves for his ENTIRE career!

[J Storm]

The Yankees Suck.

Stop It! We get it, the red sox ENVY the yankees. You guys try to be like us, but face it, you'll never have the payroll, you'll never have the talent & you'll never have a smart GM or a passionate owner...LIKE THE YANKEES DO!:buttrock:

[Underdog07]

From ESPN - a great little write up, but obviously these starting pitchers are not available. Still makes a great point.

For $51.1 million you could have a conversation with Daisuke Matsuzaka ... or you could assemble an entire staff of the best pitchers of 2006, including the top five starters in ERA, the top five relievers in holds, and the top closer in saves with $2.274 million left over for the league's best bullpen catcher:
Player Pos. 2006 Salary
Johan Santana, MIN SP $8.75M
Brandon Webb, ARI SP $2.5M
Roy Halladay, TOR SP $12.75M
Roy Oswalt, HOU SP $11M
Chris Carpenter, STL SP $5M
Scot Shields, LAA RP $2.1M
Joel Zumaya, DET RP $327K
Aaron Heilman, NYM RP $359K
Scott Linebrink, SD RP $1.365M
Juan Rincon, MIN RP $900K
Francisco Rodriguez, LAA CP $3.775M

[Underdog07]

Stop It! We get it, the red sox ENVY the yankees. You guys try to be like us, but face it, you'll never have the payroll, you'll never have the talent & you'll never have a smart GM or a passionate owner...LIKE THE YANKEES DO!:buttrock:

Obviously you have no idea who John Henry is. Brilliant man. Former co-owner of the Marlins. Former co-owner of the YANKEES. A man who loves baseball and jumped at the opportunity to be primary owner of a team.

Ever see the seats Giulinani always sat in during playoff games? Henry had the seats on the opposite side (right next to the visitor's dugout). I once got those seats from him for a Tribe game. Pretty cool.

[J Storm]

Now what happens if this pitcher doesn't sign with the red sox? Are they @ssed out of all that money?

[Underdog07]

Now what happens if this pitcher doesn't sign with the red sox? Are they @ssed out of all that money?

No. The money is returned if there is not a contract reached. The pitcher then has to go back to Japan and will be posted again next year.

The speculation is that he will sign for around 7 or 8 million a year bc that is nearly triple what he was making in Japan.

[Cage]

Stop It! We get it, the red sox ENVY the yankees. You guys try to be like us, but face it, you'll never have the payroll, you'll never have the talent & you'll never have a smart GM or a passionate owner...LIKE THE YANKEES DO!:buttrock:

Passionate=Insane?

Yankees suck aspirin. You bastiche. F-U and your NY Yankees and your NY Jets who beat my Patriots this weekend. In fact J-Storm you suck!













:eplus2: ;) Just funning you. I have said before that I don't like the laundry, but I really like some of the Players, Bernie, Jeter, Mariano all class acts, all guys I not only like but respect and admire. I still think you look reidiculous in that wack a$$ Jets shirt.

[Tony Coca]

Ok so the Sawks paid 50 million just to talk to him.Now that $50mil goes to the team and they still have to offer this guy a contract.:laugh: Damn Theo what were you smoking.

[Underdog07]

Ok so the Sawks paid 50 million just to talk to him.Now that $50mil goes to the team and they still have to offer this guy a contract.:laugh: Damn Theo what were you smoking.

This may have been the thought - Zito will be about $75 million for 5 years. Schmidt $60 million for 4 years. Whereas D-Mack will be about $75 million for 4 years.

D-Mack is younger. Zito has gotten hit hard by the elite offenses. He is NL bound. Schmidt is an NL guy and will not excel in the AL. That's it. They are not going to gamble on Padilla (4 years $40 million) or Suppan again (5 years $40 million).

More importantly, the aforementioned marketing revenue will quickly re-coup that $50 million. The plans are Japanese ads superimposed all over the park. All games he pitches will be broadcast in Japan. Then the merchandising revenue.

Then consider that this $50 does not count toward the luxury tax. Only the contract counts.

Another reason is that the Sox seem to have accepted that to compete with the Yanks $200 million payroll, they will have to be in the $150 million range (at least). So look for them to add another player or three (Lugo, Drew, and Gagne).

And its not just a Theo or Red Sox thing as several other teams bid in the $40 million range. These teams are flush with cash and it is burning holes in their pockets.

So, logically, if you have the money, its a sound investment. If he performs as expected, then it also was a good baseball move.

[OneOne78]

From ESPN - a great little write up, but obviously these starting pitchers are not available. Still makes a great point.

For $51.1 million you could have a conversation with Daisuke Matsuzaka ... or you could assemble an entire staff of the best pitchers of 2006, including the top five starters in ERA, the top five relievers in holds, and the top closer in saves with $2.274 million left over for the league's best bullpen catcher:
Player Pos. 2006 Salary
Johan Santana, MIN SP $8.75M
Brandon Webb, ARI SP $2.5M
Roy Halladay, TOR SP $12.75M
Roy Oswalt, HOU SP $11M
Chris Carpenter, STL SP $5M
Scot Shields, LAA RP $2.1M
Joel Zumaya, DET RP $327K
Aaron Heilman, NYM RP $359K
Scott Linebrink, SD RP $1.365M
Juan Rincon, MIN RP $900K
Francisco Rodriguez, LAA CP $3.775M
The numbers just prove this guy is not worth it. I don't care if he is the Cy Young of Japan. The only player to step up from Japan was Ichiro and I could argue Matsui #' with the Yanks vs his #'s in Japan.

[OneOne78]

(INTERESTING ARTICLE)
Daisuke Matsuzaka: Hideo Nomo, or Hideki Irabu?

The Boston Red Sox are literally betting a bundle that the accomplished right-handed Seibu ace will be more Nomomania than Irabugate.

And Akinori Iwamura, the Yakult third baseman whose Major League negotiating fate is expected to be clarified Thursday: Tadahito Iguchi, or Norihiro Nakamura?

Some Major League team looking for some big numbers from the hot corner will step up with big numbers of its own, hoping that Iwamura is more fact than fancy.

As you can infer from just these two examples of contrasts, MLB clubs open the vault with a gulp in their throats when offered a chance to sign away Japanese headliners. They just don't know what they are buying.

A rare opportunity to enlist a proven player, shaped by Japan's mythical culture of discipline and fundamentals, at the peak of his game? Or a rash grab based on judgment, occasionally faulty?

In the short span of a dozen years since Nomo opened the gates to Japan's wealth of talent with the Dodgers in 1995, MLB has certainly showcased big hits and bigger misses from the Far East. But there is no question that the assimilation of Japanese players into the Majors has been a success, and it is now complete.

Nomo and other pioneers in his footsteps generally were regarded as "experiments," investigations into whether Japanese stars could cut it in the bigs. Such clinical terms no longer apply; you're either good enough or you're not, just like a freckle-faced draft pick from the heartland.

And you are no longer a novelty. Headliners have already come and gone (Nomo, standout closer Kazuhiro Sasaki) but Major League box scores last season alone included 10 different sons of Japan.

The bottom line provides compelling evidence of how central Japanese imports have become: The past five World Series have had a Japanese presence, starting with Tsyoshi Shinjo (2002 Giants), Hideki Matsui (2003 Yankees) and So Taguchi (2004 Cardinals) to Iguchi (2005 White Sox) and Taguchi (2006 Cardinals) again.

Interestingly, none of those players hit the big leagues through the posting process that has been so much in the news recently, with the negotiating rights to Matsuzaka and Iwamura going up for bids.

Complete coverage > That system overall has played a minor role in the proliferation of Japanese players in the Majors, most of whom had already put in 10 Japan League seasons to become unrestricted free agents.

Matsuzaka and Iwamura brought to 11 the total number of players who have gone through the posting process. (Current Rangers reliever Akinori Otsuka has gone through it twice, the only player to have done so.) Of the previous nine, three went unclaimed and three others never reached the Majors.

The unrivaled success story of the posting process is Ichiro, and the chief big-league beneficiary of the Japan talent pipeline has been his team. The Seattle Mariners have featured other Japanese icons such as Sasaki, relievers Mac Suzuki and Shigetoshi Hasagawa, and current catcher Kenji Johjima -- but Ichiro was the only one for whom they had to compete in the posting process.

Absolutely on the other side of the Seattle coin have been the New York Mets, whose frequent stabs for a Japanese influence have all ended badly. Kaz Matsui, Masato Yoshii, Kazuhisa Ishii and Tsuyoshi Shinjo have all passed through Flushing -- none with distinction.

The Mariners' November 2000 bid of $13,125,000 for Ichiro's negotiating rights was the record until shattered in Bob Beamon-esque fashion by the Red Sox's play for Matsuzaka.

Then-Seattle GM Pat Gillick could not have been more prescient in digging deep for Ichiro. But attracting a high bid doesn't guarantee greatness. As if to again illustrate the risks involved, the heretofore second-highest finances for a posted player involved Ishii, the left-hander who elicited a bid of $11,260,000 in January 2002, then signed a four-year, $12.3 million deal with the Dodgers. He won 39 games the next four seasons -- going 3-9 with the Mets in 2005 -- before vanishing from the Major Leagues in 2006.

It is refreshing to realize that Matsuzaka and Iwamura, regardless of how they fare in the Majors, will add to a Japanese body of big-league work that is already sufficient enough to yield both Booms and Busts.

TOP 5 BOOMS
1. Ichiro Suzuki (posted, 2000): He may not have literally batted 1.000, although some weeks he appears to, but the self-proclaimed baseball rock star has performed 1.000. The outfielder has collected six All-Star selections, six 200-plus-hit seasons, six seasons of 100-plus runs and 30-plus steals and six Gold Gloves.

2. Hideo Nomo (free agent, 1995): His daring leap started it all. But beyond that, he was a terrific pitcher. He walked away with the 1995 Rookie of the Year Award after going 13-6 with 236 strikeouts in 191 innings. Nomo won 43 games his first three seasons, before the heavy Japanese workload from which he fled began to take its toll.

3. Hideki Matsui (free agent, 2003): The first power hitter from Japan. Before a wrist injury cost him most of 2006, he proved that power translates. Fundamentally perfect, tireless, with a swing to die for.

4. Tadahito Iguchi (free agent, 2005): Being called "our MVP" by the manager of the World Series champion White Sox should suffice. But Iguchi, given that prop last year by Ozzie Guillen, brings so much more, including unexpected power and great little-ball instincts.

5. Shigetoshi Hasegawa (free agent, 1997): The first reliever from Japan, condemning him to being eclipsed by Nomo. Being a middle reliever further cast him in shadows. But "Shigi" excelled for nine seasons, with a 3.71 ERA over 517 career appearances.

Honorable mention. Kazuhiro Sasaki (free agent, 1999): With cold efficiency, he posted 129 saves in four seasons through 2003, before becoming homesick and returning to Japan.

TOP 5 BUSTS
1. Norihiro Nakamura (posted, 2005): He was all but signed with the Mets in 2003 but backed out of the deal. A year later, the third baseman signed with the Dodgers as a replacement for Adrian Beltre -- and went 5-for-39 in 17 games before fading away.

2. Kaz Matsui (free agent, 2002): In retrospect, the scouting reports that built him up as being faster than Ichiro and able to cover more ground than a tarp were absurd. He simply was not that player, and New York never forgave him.

3. Kazuhisa Ishii (posted 2002): The left-hander actually bid good-bye to the Majors with a winning record (39-34), but he could not live up to the expectations raised by the Dodgers' steep investment. The Mets' Japanese Jinx finished him off in 2005, when he went 3-9 in New York after having gone a solid 36-25 in three Los Angeles seasons.

4. Masato Yoshii (free agent 1998): His big-league career began with much promise when he posted a 3.93 ERA in 29 starts for the 1998 Mets, but ended four years later with a 32-47 record.

5. Hideki Irabu (free agent, 1997): He refused to sign with San Diego after the Padres purchased his contract from the Chiba Lotte Marines, forcing a trade to the Yankees. In three seasons in the Bronx, Irabu picked up 29 wins and, well, a lot of weight. But his big-league career, which ended two years later, consisted of a 34-35 record and a 5.15 ERA.

Dishonorable mention. Tsuyoshi Shinjo (free agent, 2000) He had all the pizzazz, including purple hair, to take New York but little of the talent. He hit .193 in 62 games for the Mets in 2003, then went back to being a Nippon Ham Fighter.

Tom Singer is a reporter for MLB.com. This story was not subject to the approval of Major League Baseball or its clubs.

[Underdog07]

The numbers just prove this guy is not worth it. I don't care if he is the Cy Young of Japan. The only player to step up from Japan was Ichiro and I could argue Matsui #' with the Yanks vs his #'s in Japan.

Those numbers however are irrelevant bc those players are not available, at any price. The bid/contract needs to be compared to the contracts of this years free agents - Zito, Schmidt etc. When all of that is said and done, it may ery well be a reasonable contract in the eyes of the baseball world. Many socuts consider him to be at or very near Santana's level. If true, he's a smart baseball move.

However, it is funny that many Yankee fans are bemoaning how foolish this is when there team bid about $40 million for the same bidding rights/ If they had won, would that have been a sane and rational bid? Of course.

My team can't even sign middle relievers because of how out of wake this whole financial landscape is.

[ant-man]

i didnt read the begining of the post...but the only reason (imo) the Sox outbid everyone was to keep him away from the yanks...He is so not worth that amount of money...51 million just to talk to him? and then they have to signb him for 15-20 mil. a year...yeah right? id be very surprised they sign him....after the 30 day window to sign him the rights revert back to the Japanese league, where he cant become a free agent for another 2 years...

[OneOne78]

Those numbers however are irrelevant bc those players are not available, at any price. The bid/contract needs to be compared to the contracts of this years free agents - Zito, Schmidt etc. When all of that is said and done, it may ery well be a reasonable contract in the eyes of the baseball world. Many socuts consider him to be at or very near Santana's level. If true, he's a smart baseball move.

However, it is funny that many Yankee fans are bemoaning how foolish this is when there team bid about $40 million for the same bidding rights/ If they had won, would that have been a sane and rational bid? Of course.

My team can't even sign middle relievers because of how out of wake this whole financial landscape is.
In my mind it is still hard to justify throwing all that money on a player that has never thrown a pitch in the Majors. I understand that this year’s free agent class is scarce in pitching but damn that's still a lot of money.

I understand some teams have more money to burn than others but its never what the owners report but that’s a debate for another day. The Mets bid 38 million dollar and I’m glad they did not win. They should put that money into a proven MLB player but I’ll be the first to go on record to say they paid way too much for El Duque. I think a 3 million one year would have been fair. Two years at six million a piece a bad deal.

[OneOne78]

i didnt read the begining of the post...but the only reason (imo) the Sox outbid everyone was to keep him away from the yanks...He is so not worth that amount of money...51 million just to talk to him? and then they have to signb him for 15-20 mil. a year...yeah right? id be very surprised they sign him....after the 30 day window to sign him the rights revert back to the Japanese league, where he cant become a free agent for another 2 years...
They will sign him but the question is at what cost?

[Collection King 13]

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g47/rloria1212/jesus1.jpg

[Underdog07]

I understand some teams have more money to burn than others but its never what the owners report but that’s a debate for another day. The Mets bid 38 million dollar and I’m glad they did not win. They should put that money into a proven MLB player but I’ll be the first to go on record to say they paid way too much for El Duque. I think a 3 million one year would have been fair. Two years at six million a piece a bad deal.

The baseball pundits take the opposite view and believe it was foolish for him to resign so soon. They believe he could have gotten a 3 year contract at 8 million plus from some other team.

If I had the money, I would roll the dice on D-Mack. As I stated the $50 million gets recouped by advertising revenue (money signing Zito would not be). That leaves you holding the bag for the contract. He is not getting 15-20 million. It will be more like $8 tops. Boras or no Boras, there is no leverage.

So again, you are looking at getting D-Mack for 4 years and a total outlay of say $80 million. Zito and Schmidt will be in the same range. Who is better? Only time will tell, but most scouts are saying this guy is one of the best ever.

Plus there is speculation that the Lions are going to kick some o fthe $50 million into D-Mack's contract. If so, then the money issue starts to become more reasonable.

The Mets will sign Zito, which begs the question why not trade for him when you had the chance to make the World Series?

[Underdog07]

i didnt read the begining of the post...but the only reason (imo) the Sox outbid everyone was to keep him away from the yanks...He is so not worth that amount of money...51 million just to talk to him? and then they have to signb him for 15-20 mil. a year...yeah right? id be very surprised they sign him....after the 30 day window to sign him the rights revert back to the Japanese league, where he cant become a free agent for another 2 years...

That notion was bandied about early in the week. However, it has been disspelled. If the Sox offered a bogus contract, MLG would rescind their rights and grant them to the next highest bidder.

[Sniper]

That notion was bandied about early in the week. However, it has been disspelled. If the Sox offered a bogus contract, MLG would rescind their rights and grant them to the next highest bidder.

and the red sox would loose face in japan and probably never land any other high priced free agents in the future....

[OneOne78]

Off topic but who says there is no money in baseball?
November 16, 2006

Mets Make a Mint from NLCS

Don't cry too many tears for the Mets financially. Despite getting eliminated in the NLCS, the Mets players shared $6,672,245.27 for ending the season as the NL's runners-up. Each full share is worth $124,429.60. The Mets awarded 40 full shares, 13-1/3 partial shares and six cash awards.

The full release - with the team-by-team breakdown, including an all-time record value of $362,173.07 for each full share awarded by the World Champion Cards - is after the break.

2006 WORLD SERIES SHARES ANNOUNCED

A full share for the World Series Champion St. Louis Cardinals is a record total of $362,173.07, surpassing the previous high of $324,532.72 per full share for the 2005 World Series Champion Chicago White Sox, Major League Baseball announced today. A full share for the American League Champion Detroit Tigers is $291,667.68.

The players’ pool, formed from 60 percent of the gate receipts from the first three games of the Division Series and 60 percent of the gate receipts from the first four games of the League Championship Series and the World Series, was divided among 12 clubs: the World Series participants, the League Championship Series and Division Series runners-up, and the four regular season second-place clubs that were not Wild Card participants.

The club-by-club breakdown follows:

World Series Champions

St. Louis Cardinals (Share of Players’ Pool: $20,016,735.81; value of each full share: $362,173.07) – The Cardinals awarded 48 full shares, 7.133 partial shares and 16 cash awards.

American League Champions

Detroit Tigers (Share of Players’ Pool: $13,344,490.54; value of each full share: $291,667.68) – The Tigers awarded 39 full shares, 6.67 partial shares and nine cash awards.

League Championship Series Runners-Up

New York Mets (Share of Players’ Pool: $6,672,245.27; value of each full share: $124,429.60) – The Mets awarded 40 full shares, 13.333 partial shares and six cash awards.

Oakland Athletics (Share of Players’ Pool: $6,672,245.27; value of each full share: $140,624.90) – The A’s awarded 41 full shares, 5.80 partial shares and 14 cash awards.

Division Series Runners-Up

Los Angeles Dodgers (Share of Players’ Pool: $1,668,061.32; value of each full share: $27,035.00) – The Dodgers awarded 50 full shares, 11.478 partial shares and three cash awards.

Minnesota Twins (Share of Players’ Pool: $1,668,061.32; value of each full share: $37,538.99) – The Twins awarded 39 full shares, 4.25 partial shares and 15 cash awards.

New York Yankees (Share of Players’ Pool: $1,668,061.32; value of each full share: $28,598.24) – The Yankees awarded 45 full shares, 13.24 partial shares and three cash awards.

San Diego Padres (Share of Players’ Pool: $1,668,061.32; value of each full share: $27,339.86) – The Padres awarded 52 full shares, 8.50 partial shares and 21 cash awards.

Second-Place Finishers (Non-Wild Card Clubs)

Houston Astros (Share of Players’ Pool: $556,020.44; value of each full share: $10,285.70) – The Astros awarded 43 full shares, 11 partial shares and eight cash awards.

Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim (Share of Players’ Pool: $556,020.44; value of each full share: $10,154.79) – The Angels awarded 50 full shares and 5.25 partial shares.

Philadelphia Phillies (Share of Players’ Pool: $556,020.44; value of each full share: $10,909.50) – The Phillies awarded 36 full shares, 14.417 partial shares and six cash awards.

Toronto Blue Jays (Share of Players’ Pool: $556,020.44; value of each full share: $11,830.22) – The Blue Jays awarded 33 full shares and 14 partial shares.

Posted by Adam Rubin at November 16, 2006 02:43 PM