Another school shooting

[lord odin]

http://www.cnn.com/

[endsongjen]

:( this world is crap! maybe i shouldnt have anymore kids.

[lord odin]

:( this world is crap! maybe i shouldnt have anymore kids.

This is why I don`t have kids and never will.

[HalJordanFan]

:( this world is crap! maybe i shouldnt have anymore kids.

I know the feeling. I have 2 and another on the way and this is what I have to look forward to.

[Jerseydevil]

Sickening.

[endsongjen]

it just saddens me cuz the world can be a beautiful place..... i dont want my daughter growing up thinking this is normal, all the violence.

[Barbarian]

This is why I don`t have kids and never will.

Strong ditto on that one, lord. Thanks, but no thanks.

[Crom]

It is just sickening to think of the damage one person is capable of. In one four-hour block, this kid has managed to instill more fear than any terrorist has since 2001.

We can actually prepare for a terrorist attack and defeat it before it takes place, but a kid with guns can kill 22 people before we can react.

[Wooktroop]

fed sources: 32 dead

[JLM]

Appalling.

[ANGRYCOMICMAN]

What a waste. I hope the murderer burns in hell for all eternity.

[TheJoker]

i think im gonna be sick... this is very disheartning...

[Collection King 13]

I cant believe it... I just read about it online...

[riderV3]

Heard it on radio 30 minutes ago and it's said to be the worst school shooting ever on U.S. history...

It was 29 death but bumped up to 30 before I turned off the radio, and it's 32 now....:(

[Crom]

32 deaths, 24 injured. Who knows how many of the injured are critical.

How on Earth can any one person kill so many, so quickly with just firearms? It just staggers the mind.

[marvelboi77]

Less guns more statues.

[Vince-Vell]

What the hell drives people to do this short of stuff?

its just sick and twisted.

[Kirbyfan]

Our fearless leader had this to say:

“The president believes that there is a right for people to bear arms, but that all laws must be followed,”

How profound.

[Brru]

What I find horrible is that I had to come HERE to see this article. While my local "news" wont shut up about Imus.

[Harrold]

Our fearless leader had this to say:

“The president believes that there is a right for people to bear arms, but that all laws must be followed,”

How profound.

I would assume this snippet you quote is part of a larger overall discussion, and from the sound of what he said, sounds like an answer to a question someone may have asked.

Just what is the point of slamming Bush here? You people make me laugh. Can't even let the dead rest without getting your shots in against a president you obviously hate.

I really would like to know from the mods just where the line is regarding the discussion of politics here.

[riderV3]

What the hell drives people to do this sort of stuff?



Exactly waht I thought, I just don't see the point of this school shooting thing...I mean what for?

[Kirbyfan]

I would assume this snippet you quote is part of a larger overall discussion, and from the sound of what he said, sounds like an answer to a question someone may have asked.

Just what is the point of slamming Bush here? You people make me laugh. Can't even let the dead rest without getting your shots in against a president you obviously hate.

I really would like to know from the mods just where the line is regarding the discussion of politics here.

Just pointing out that the first response by the president is more of a political stance than an actual offer of condolences.

And yes, my stance is that guns kill. And they killed at least 32 today.

[Harrold]

So those guns just went around on their own stalked the students and fired?

*regarding the edit from the moderator* pretty darn hilarious once we see just what is "too political". I see that comments against conservatives are fair gane, yet the reverse is not. I love an even playing field.

[Vince-Vell]

Exactly waht I thought, I just don't see the point of this school shooting thing...I mean what for?



So many other problems in this country, yet crazy people walk into schools and open fire.

Wish there was a way to send those nuts after the real problems in this country. Like send them after the drug dealers, criminals etc....

[Kirbyfan]

So those guns just went around on their own stalked the students and fired?



Geez, and you're accusing me of making a political statement. I believe that the saying under your username pretty much says it all.

I think maybe you should go back the the NRA forum where you came from.

[Harrold]

Geez, and you're accusing me of making a political statement. I believe that the saying under your username pretty much says it all.

I think maybe you should go back the the NRA forum where you came from.

You are a member here longer than me, so I would think you should know that the blurb under my name comes from the admin of the board, not me. You would do well not to make assumptions based on your own prejudices, and your obvious political affiliation.

I've read this board long enough to see that the the snide comments of a political nature nearly always come from the left. Fine and dandy sir, but you shouldn't be shocked when someone that disagrees with you with also post their own thoughts. If you prefer to not discuss the issues from a poitical pov, than keep your comments to yourself.

[Bullseye]

I know its in your constitution that you have a right to bare arms but i think and its only my opinion you need to amend your constitution. Whatever about owning a rifle or shotgun for hunting owning semi-automatic machine guns and handguns is crazy. I appreciate that I am not an American but i do love your country and it sadens me to see these things happening on a regular basis in the US.

[Bullseye]

Guys lets not make this personal. Keep it on topic.

[Harrold]

Guys lets not make this personal. Keep it on topic.

I agree. So what does Bush have to do with this? other than the typical digs some on the board like to throw. And I thought politics weren't a topic of discussion here. Or is that only when someone actually replies to a stiupid comment? I'd honestly like to know where the line is drawn.

[Bullseye]

Bush has no more to do with this than pervious Presidents and adminstrations. But lets keep the politics out of this discussion. I know its part of everyday life and i would love nothing more to discuss it but its very hard to control and most times people cannot behalve themselves.

[Cloysterpeteuk]

Do Americans really love there firearms so much that they are willing to keep on letting such incidents as this happen rather than ban such firearms?.

You may say oh it's my constitutional right blah blah, but whats more important?, your right to own a gun or the rights of innocent kids to live?, because everyone of you pro gun fanactics are putting more kids in jeopardy because it's you guys standing against the laws which would prevent this from happening.

All other Western nations where firearms are banned have no problem with epidemics of school shootings so it's blantantly obvious what needs to happen to end this.

[Tetragrammaton]

32 deaths, 24 injured. Who knows how many of the injured are critical.

How on Earth can any one person kill so many, so quickly with just firearms? It just staggers the mind.

So quickly? It seems that the sootings occurred over a three-four hour period in seperate locations. Any way you want to look at this, police failed to contain him.

This was only one man and lightly armed. It could have been much worse.

[DFury]

This is a truly sad event, so lets keep focused here, I understand everyone has there opinion on firearms. I for one am a Owner of 3 myself and enjoy going out to the range and target practice, I also enjoy taking my 15yr old with me, we discuss safety and other issues about firearms while we are out there.

Banning of all firearms is not the answer, I will try and find this article I recently read and post it..

Let us just grieve for the family's who lost loved ones today...

df

[JM28Cardiff]

Guns dont kill people, people kill people, but maybe there would be less dead if the person only had access to a knife.

Why is it always schools?

[CessnaDriver]

Guns dont kill people, people kill people, but maybe there would be less dead if the person only had access to a knife.

Why is it always schools?

Because they are gun free zones.

Gun bill gets shot down by panel
HB 1572, which would have allowed handguns on college campuses, died in subcommittee.
http://www.roanoke.com/news/roanoke/wb/wb/xp-50658

"Virginia Tech spokesman Larry Hincker was happy to hear the [Virginia campus gun rights] bill was defeated. "I'm sure the university community is appreciative of the General Assembly's actions because this will help parents, students, faculty and visitors feel safe on our campus." -- The Roanoke Times, January 31, 2006



"Feeling" safe and actually being safer of course are two different things.
Sickening.




And before we bag on America too much...

Murders (per capita) by country
VIEW DATA: Totals Per capita
Definition Source Printable version

Bar Graph Map Correlations

Rank Countries Amount (top to bottom)
#1 Colombia: 0.617847 per 1,000 people
#2 South Africa: 0.496008 per 1,000 people
#3 Jamaica: 0.324196 per 1,000 people
#4 Venezuela: 0.316138 per 1,000 people
#5 Russia: 0.201534 per 1,000 people
#6 Mexico: 0.130213 per 1,000 people
#7 Estonia: 0.107277 per 1,000 people
#8 Latvia: 0.10393 per 1,000 people
#9 Lithuania: 0.102863 per 1,000 people
#10 Belarus: 0.0983495 per 1,000 people
#11 Ukraine: 0.094006 per 1,000 people
#12 Papua New Guinea: 0.0838593 per 1,000 people
#13 Kyrgyzstan: 0.0802565 per 1,000 people
#14 Thailand: 0.0800798 per 1,000 people
#15 Moldova: 0.0781145 per 1,000 people
#16 Zimbabwe: 0.0749938 per 1,000 people
#17 Seychelles: 0.0739025 per 1,000 people
#18 Zambia: 0.070769 per 1,000 people
#19 Costa Rica: 0.061006 per 1,000 people
#20 Poland: 0.0562789 per 1,000 people
#21 Georgia: 0.0511011 per 1,000 people
#22 Uruguay: 0.045082 per 1,000 people
#23 Bulgaria: 0.0445638 per 1,000 people
#24 United States: 0.042802 per 1,000 people
#25 Armenia: 0.0425746 per 1,000 people
#26 India: 0.0344083 per 1,000 people
#27 Yemen: 0.0336276 per 1,000 people
#28 Dominica: 0.0289733 per 1,000 people
#29 Azerbaijan: 0.0285642 per 1,000 people
#30 Finland: 0.0283362 per 1,000 people
#31 Slovakia: 0.0263303 per 1,000 people
#32 Romania: 0.0250784 per 1,000 people
#33 Portugal: 0.0233769 per 1,000 people
#34 Malaysia: 0.0230034 per 1,000 people
#35 Macedonia, The Former Yugoslav Republic of: 0.0229829 per 1,000 people
#36 Mauritius: 0.021121 per 1,000 people
#37 Hungary: 0.0204857 per 1,000 people
#38 Korea, South: 0.0196336 per 1,000 people
#39 Slovenia: 0.0179015 per 1,000 people
#40 France: 0.0173272 per 1,000 people
#41 Czech Republic: 0.0169905 per 1,000 people
#42 Iceland: 0.0168499 per 1,000 people
#43 Australia: 0.0150324 per 1,000 people
#44 Canada: 0.0149063 per 1,000 people
#45 Chile: 0.014705 per 1,000 people
#46 United Kingdom: 0.0140633 per 1,000 people
#47 Italy: 0.0128393 per 1,000 people
#48 Spain: 0.0122456 per 1,000 people
#49 Germany: 0.0116461 per 1,000 people
#50 Tunisia: 0.0112159 per 1,000 people
#51 Netherlands: 0.0111538 per 1,000 people
#52 New Zealand: 0.0111524 per 1,000 people
#53 Denmark: 0.0106775 per 1,000 people
#54 Norway: 0.0106684 per 1,000 people
#55 Ireland: 0.00946215 per 1,000 people
#56 Switzerland: 0.00921351 per 1,000 people
#57 Indonesia: 0.00910842 per 1,000 people
#58 Greece: 0.0075928 per 1,000 people
#59 Hong Kong: 0.00550804 per 1,000 people
#60 Japan: 0.00499933 per 1,000 people
#61 Saudi Arabia: 0.00397456 per 1,000 people
#62 Qatar: 0.00115868 per 1,000 people
Weighted average: 0.1 per 1,000 people

[hawkeyethearcher]

its schools cause restaurants dont get as much news time. there were a lot of shootings at food establishments until those Columbine kids got all that airtime. it is already known that they do this to be noticed by people. for whatever reason they want to be noticed.they dont do it to kill for fun.


ah i love watching all the people who want to use the death of others to further their cause. it the fault of the movies and music once again. morons.

[CessnaDriver]

its schools cause restaurants dont get as much news time. there were a lot of shootings at food establishments until those Columbine kids got all that airtime. it is already known that they do this to be noticed by people. for whatever reason they want to be noticed.they dont do it to kill for fun.


ah i love watching all the people who want to use the death of others to further their cause. it the fault of the movies and music once again. morons.

Problem is it is other peoples "causes" like shooting down the bill to carry self protection firearms on campus resulted in a slaughterhouse....

Is it ok then to to point it out?

Or should we just shut up and not be angry as hell?

[hawkeyethearcher]

Problem is it is other peoples "causes" like shooting down the bill to carry self protection firearms on campus resulted in a slaughterhouse....

Is it ok then to to point it out?

Or should we just shut up and not be angry as hell?

those two things have nothing to do with eachother. one is a bill based in reality the others are entertainment at best based on someones point of view of reality. but if you think this happened cause people cant carry guns on campus well then how did this guy get a gun on campus. they dont check you at the door. if you are a student and you feel safer carrying dont let anyone know.

[CessnaDriver]

those two things have nothing to do with eachother. one is a bill based in reality the others are entertainment at best based on someones point of view of reality. but if you think this happened cause people cant carry guns on campus well then how did this guy get a gun on campus. they dont check you at the door. if you are a student and you feel safer carrying dont let anyone know.

A student was busted for carrying but he had a permit so at least the police did not charge him.
The school would expel you for carrying.


We need to ENCOURAGE people to learn how to defend themselves.
Not everyone needs to carry. Just some, a few choose to.

[hawkeyethearcher]

man this reporter is getting a boner about this. he seems more excited about finding out if he is reporting about the worst shooting ever for schools than what is going on. i am done watching these news *****s.

[CessnaDriver]

those two things have nothing to do with eachother. one is a bill based in reality the others are entertainment at best based on someones point of view of reality. but if you think this happened cause people cant carry guns on campus well then how did this guy get a gun on campus. they dont check you at the door. if you are a student and you feel safer carrying dont let anyone know.

I have no idea what this "entertainment" comment you are saying is about.

At this school recently a student was busted for carrying but he had a permit so at least the police did not charge him. The school would expel you for carrying.



We need to ENCOURAGE people to learn how to defend themselves.
Not everyone needs to carry. Just some, those that choose to carry, train, have clean records, know the law. Basic stuff. That is all it takes.


wake up America.

"gun free" zones do not work.

[hawkeyethearcher]

I have no idea what this "entertainment" comment you are saying is about.

At this school recently a student was busted for carrying but he had a permit so at least the police did not charge him. The school would expel you for carrying.



We need to ENCOURAGE people to learn how to defend themselves.
Not everyone needs to carry. Just some, those that choose to carry, train, have clean records, know the law. Basic stuff. That is all it takes.


wake up America.

"gun free" zones do not work.

you quoted me and what you quoted had nothing to do with what you said so i was pointing out the differrence. what you are talking about is directly connected to what is going on and is a good idea. what i was talking about was people using this to blame something that has nothing to do with it. in this case entertainment. i am sure i will have to listen to the religious nuts try and use these deaths to get more money for there religious groups. even though this has nothing to do with religion.

[CessnaDriver]

you quoted me and what you quoted had nothing to do with what you said so i was pointing out the differrence. what you are talking about is directly connected to what is going on and is a good idea. what i was talking about was people using this to blame something that has nothing to do with it. in this case entertainment. i am sure i will have to listen to the religious nuts try and use these deaths to get more money for there religious groups. even though this has nothing to do with religion.

Got it.

And yes, I strongly agree. I think there will be many groups that will certainly try to blame all kinds of nonsense that in the end does nothing to improve the problem.

[hawkeyethearcher]

funny i just heard someone talk about what you are talking about.

they want armed security in schools and other areas that are highly populated.

its a good idea. i wont stop the killings but will keep them down to one area and of course the security will be the first to be gunned down so if they can get a shot off then that can stop it faster.

[lord odin]

Guns don`t kill people,people kill people.
This guy could have used a knife or a bomb using a gun is just faster and safer.

[Harrold]

I've seen some of the news coverage and it's making me ill. Not just the crime, but the media's implications and finger pointing at the school when we don't even have half the facts yet.

Here's the story-

Psycho invades a campus and slaughters over thirty innocents. Who's at fault?


Duh...the f-ing psycho. End of story.

[armitage]

It's typical bull****.
People turning anti-gun lobbyist in the face of a situation like this.
Hey!
Where are you when Naceem walks onto a bus loaded with kids in Israel carrying 10 pounds of c4, and going Jihad?
Yeah it's a shame a guy killed 33 people. And yes it's real convienient to say it was the guns fault.
But typical knee jerk responses from some people are expected.
I am not flexible on the right to bear arms. I don't care what foreigners think about my American civil liberties.
If I'm labeled as an NRA gun nut.....so be it.

[William Paquet]

Let us just grieve for the family's who lost loved ones today...

df

You said it. At least let the bodies reach room temp before we start biting each other's heads off. There are over 30 families that will forever be changed, and scores of bystanders or living victims that will also carry the scars of the event.

[heykool69]

One thing i hate most is 30+ families will have no closure to this case due to the fact this f--king psycho killed himself for the rest of us to wonder.

[sellin71]

This is a very tragic day. I am very saddened by today's events, however I found something very ironic on CNN's website tonight. Normally CNN presents somewhat anti-religious articles until something like this happens. All of a sudden they paste a group of students huddled at a VA church praying. If the media would portray prayer in a positive light all the time, maybe events like this wouldn't occur. I am so afraid that this country has strayed so far from any moral system that today's youth have no conscience or fear of what lies after this life. I am not here to preach today, but even if you are not a religious person, morals and respect for human life must be taught from an early age, if not this will be common place in tomorrows news.

[riderV3]

There's no further confirmation but mutiple witnesses said that psycho killer is an Asian.

And some sources said it happened because of some male/female relationship problem...No further confirmation either cuz that bastard is dead now.

[marvelboi77]

We should do what Chris Rock said, charge $200 for a bullet. That way when someone uses one you know they deserved it.

[sellin71]

We should do what Chris Rock said, charge $200 for a bullet. That way when someone uses one you know they deserved it.

Sorry Marvelboi, that is out of line. No disrespect to you, but wow, thats just not right.

[HalJordanFan]

We should do what Chris Rock said, charge $200 for a bullet. That way when someone uses one you know they deserved it.

There is something seriously wrong with you! :stick:

[Wayne Industries]

I was very sad when I first heard about this. Such a tragic event. I've read most of what everyone else has posted on this issue and of course, I have my own stance regarding George Bush, guns and religon but I think that argument is best saved for another day.

[riderV3]

There is something seriously wrong with you! :stick:

Honestly?

I actually thought that wasn't too bad an idea...:confused2

What's the problem of raising the price to lower the demand? It's quite natural, people would be more careful on bullets usage.

[The Watcher]

Honestly?

I actually thought that wasn't too bad an idea...:confused2

What's the problem of raising the price to lower the demand? It's quite natural, people would be more careful on bullets usage.

It's a horrible idea. Gun ownership is a right in this country, not a privilege. Raising the price on bullets is a blatant attempt by gun control activists to discourage law abiding citizens from owning/using guns.

This tragedy might have been lessened if the campus administrators had allowed guns on campus.

http://www.wbir.com/printfullstory.aspx?storyid=43109

Police in Memphis say a gunman firing a pistol beside a busy city street was subdued by two passers-by who were also armed.

No one was hurt during the incident that apparently began with a minor traffic accident, but one passing car was believed hit by a bullet.

Brothers William Webber and Paul Webber told police they stopped their car and pulled their own pistols when they saw a man firing a handgun yesterday.

The brothers said they ordered the man to drop his weapon and then held him at gunpoint until police arrived a few minutes later. Police say the Webbers did not fire their pistols.

Police arrested Dementrius Roberson and charged him with reckless endangerment. Police say the Webber brothers and Roberson have licenses to carry firearms.

My sympathies and prayers go out to all of the victims and their family members.

[rilynil]

I don't think shootouts between untrained people are a good idea. I know I wouldn't want to have my life in the hands of some schmo on the street trying to decide who needs shooting the most. It may be a constitutional right to own a gun, but how many people can make the absolute best, safest decisions with adrenalin rushing through their veins. Even policemen and soldiers sometimes have a hard time making good decisions.

When I'm on the interstate, I have little faith in others' driving skills because I'm a defensive driver. If I can't trust people to drive their cars safely, I tend not to trust their ability fire guns in public.

I'm not challenging anyone's constitutional rights. I'm just saying arming everyone is likely to cause more problems than it solves.

[Bullseye]

Has there ever been a constitutional referendum on the subject of keeping weapons? or any amendment to the original constitution?

[William Paquet]

Has there ever been a constitutional referendum on the subject of keeping weapons? or any amendment to the original constitution?

2nd Amendment in the Bill of Rights. The "bill of rights". Any talk of recinding it would be met with fierce opposition.

[Bullseye]

2nd Amendment in the Bill of Rights. The "bill of rights". Any talk of recinding it would be met with fierce opposition.

William I am sure it will but is it a minority or majority. In recent years Ireland had a constitutional referendum on our claim to the six counties in Northern Ireland. Our country was set up on the understanding at the time that the six counties would eventually reunite with the Republic. This has not happened to date yet only very recently a historic agreement between the two staunchest rivals on both the Republican and Unionist sides have agree to work together in a “Home Rule” style parliament. In order to achieve this position we in the Republic of Ireland had to make a decision to remove from our Constitution all claims to the six counties. I can tell you now that that was a far greater commitment to achieving lasting peace on this Island. Giving up your right to bare arms seems insignificant in comparison. We are entitled to own a shotgun or a rifle to a certain calibre for hunting purposes I see no reason to own a handgun, which can be easily, concealed in side your jacket.

[William Paquet]

William I am sure it will but is it a minority or majority. In recent years Ireland had a constitutional referendum on our claim to the six counties in Northern Ireland. Our country was set up on the understanding at the time that the six counties would eventually reunite with the Republic. This has not happened to date yet only very recently a historic agreement between the two staunchest rivals on both the Republican and Unionist sides have agree to work together in a “Home Rule” style parliament. In order to achieve this position we in the Republic of Ireland had to make a decision to remove from our Constitution all claims to the six counties. I can tell you now that that was a far greater commitment to achieving lasting peace on this Island. Giving up your right to bare arms seems insignificant in comparison. We are entitled to own a shotgun or a rifle to a certain calibre for hunting purposes I see no reason to own a handgun, which can be easily, concealed in side your jacket.

Firstly, Bulls, I appreciate the reasoned manner with which you bring your argument, and I will not argue the pro gun side here as I see it an endless debate. All I will say is this, unless the manufacturing of anything other hunting rifles is prohibited, the only result of banning handguns woiuld be that criminals would have them but no law abiding citizens would. This gun-nut-on-campus horror is beyond distrurbing. I don't have the answers as to why it happens other than the fact that a lunatic will do what they need to for attention.

If it wasn't handguns this guy used it would be something else, and maybe something far worse. Timothy McVeigh(sp?) blew up the building in Oklahoma City with a fertilizer bomb that anyone could make. Do we ban fertilizer because a freak misused it?

There are no simple answers in a country that allows the freedoms that we do.

Peace.:)

[Bullseye]

Do we ban fertilizer because a freak misused it?

Well the EU is trying to limit the quantities farmers can use on their lands. I think its mainly to do with ground water protection.

I know we will never properly debate such issues on here thats why i think its best not to bother as we can not control what people might say on the manner like "Imus" lol.

[William Paquet]

I know we will never properly debate such issues on here thats why i think its best not to bother as we can not control what people might say on the manner like "Imus" lol.

True enough. It would be interesting if the discussion stayed on the issue of the victims, but being the wacky human beings we are, we can't seem to keep our personal POV out of the discourse. So long as we maintain decorum though, I guess the debate is good.:)

[Bullseye]

It is bound to happen when something happens like this. Recently five or six schoolgirls were killed while travelling home on a school bus. The driver lost control and the bus flipped over. There was outcry that there was no seatbelts provided but at the time it was not the law to have seatbelts on a bus and who is going to ensure they wear them anyway. Most times there is a kneejerk reaction but i think with the latest school killings I don't think a debate could be considered kneejerk as its not the first time and certainly will not be the last.

[rilynil]

It is bound to happen when something happens like this. Recently five or six schoolgirls were killed while travelling home on a school bus. The driver lost control and the bus flipped over. There was outcry that there was no seatbelts provided but at the time it was not the law to have seatbelts on a bus and who is going to ensure they wear them anyway. Most times there is a kneejerk reaction but i think with the latest school killings I don't think a debate could be considered kneejerk as its not the first time and certainly will not be the last.
That school bus went off the interstate bridge less than a half mile from my office. In fact, the father of one of the dead girls works in our pressroom. God, what a horrible day. But when the seat-belt cries went up, I thought it was ludicrous. The bus went over a guard rail and fell more than 30 feet -- head first -- to the ground below. People were going to die, regardless, in that situation.

Anyway, I don't have a comment on the knee-jerk question. I just thought I'd share.

[The Watcher]

True enough. It would be interesting if the discussion stayed on the issue of the victims, but being the wacky human beings we are, we can't seem to keep our personal POV out of the discourse. So long as we maintain decorum though, I guess the debate is good.:)

It's natural for people who are confronted with tragedies such as this, to seek answers or solutions. It's part of the grieving process. I'm not an expert in psychology but I do have a background in law enforcement so I addressed the gun part of the equation.

It wasn't my intent to get in to a debate about the second amendment, it was only to offer an alternative point of view.

[The Watcher]

I don't think shootouts between untrained people are a good idea. I know I wouldn't want to have my life in the hands of some schmo on the street trying to decide who needs shooting the most. It may be a constitutional right to own a gun, but how many people can make the absolute best, safest decisions with adrenalin rushing through their veins. Even policemen and soldiers sometimes have a hard time making good decisions.

When I'm on the interstate, I have little faith in others' driving skills because I'm a defensive driver. If I can't trust people to drive their cars safely, I tend not to trust their ability fire guns in public.

I'm not challenging anyone's constitutional rights. I'm just saying arming everyone is likely to cause more problems than it solves.

Sorry for the stereotype but I'm guessing that if you took a poll of people in your news room, the vast majority would be in favor of gun control. My experience is that most of the people in the "media" tend to lean that way.

I grew up in rural Michigan. The majority of people had guns in their home. They used them for hunting and other sporting events. They also used them to protect their family and property. It was common for young men to store rifles and shotguns in their cars during the hunting season. To suggest that "some schmo on the street" would "decide who needs shooting the most" indicates a lack of faith in the common man. I respect your opinion, I just have a different point of view.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe that Virginia Tech has a large population of students (cadets) interested in a career in the military. I'm sure a lot of those students are proficient with guns and would have used them appropriately in this incident.

[rilynil]

Sorry for the stereotype but I'm guessing that if you took a poll of people in your news room, the vast majority would be in favor of gun control. My experience is that most of the people in the "media" field tend to lean that way.

I grew up in rural Michigan. The majority of people had guns in their home. They used them for hunting and other sporting events. They also used them to protect their family and property. It was common for young men to store rifles and shotguns in their cars during the hunting season. To suggest that "some schmo on the street" would "decide who needs shooting the most" indicates a lack of faith in the common man. I respect your opinion, I just have a different point of view.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe that Virginia Tech has a large population of students (cadets) interested in a career in the military. I'm sure a lot of those students are proficient with guns and would have used them appropriately in this incident.
I'm an optimistic person, but 23 years in journalism does tend to jade a person. People outside a newsroom have no idea what kind of telephone calls reporters get on a regular basis. It'll shake anyone's faith in the common man.
:laugh:

Again, I don't like the idea of untrained people shooting at each other. And I don't think shooting at deer qualifies someone as being trained in handling a situation with a deranged gunman.

I'm from rural Alabama originally. I have no doubt there are as many guns around here as there is in rural Michigan.

One final thought: if Virginia Tech banned guns on campus, I'm sure they had some reasons for doing so.

[riderV3]

Further report says the psycho killer is a South Korean, who has a very normal family with nice and friendly parents...

But word goes the son is an utter weirdo, he never really talked to anyone, that's the impression from his classmates.

And the reason behind the shooting is proved to be girl friend issue.
He long suspected that his GF was having an affair with another man. He then brought his weapons to the girl's place and found the man in her bed.

He lost control and killed them both, then he started shooting people randomly and blown up his own face from the back of his head.

Young people nowadays really need to learn how to deal with relationship issues, violence certainly cannot solve any problems, don't even talk aout killing.

[armitage]

Most times there is a kneejerk reaction but i think with the latest school killings I don't think a debate could be considered kneejerk as its not the first time and certainly will not be the last.

Some people are fast on the draw when it comes to pointing fingers.
But where is the real responsibility? With the one who picked up the gun and started shooting.
I own guns and am a law abiding citizen and I have been using pistols on the range, rifles for deer, shotgun for small game.....for years.
I have never had any ill desire to go ballistic because I am sane.
But for these select few psychos out there the gun is a quick tool in reaching their goals. But what about vehicle manslaughter? When a person is hit and killed by a motorist who flees the scene, people blame the driver and not the automobile.

It's a disgusting thing that happened here, no doubt. But seriously these crazy bastards would find one way or another to take life.. by fire, knife,gun,
some chemical concoction or even flying a plane into a building. They had the idea in their demented minds all along, they are a threat to society. The gun is only an implement.
In the right hands it can protect and provide sustanance. We have seen what it can obviously do in the wrong hands.
It just seems like the real problem is that there is a real lack of conscience
and moral balance these days. Peolpe have less and less respect for those around them. This guy who commited this act was also rumored to be on anti-depressents as well. They can actually make some people's behavior more irrational and cause more problems than were there in the begining.
I've seen it first hand working at a group home where I had to restrain kids who had recently been docile. When the docs changed their meds, after awhile they became extremely different. And I believe that may have been part of the problem to some extent in this case.

[JM28Cardiff]

Crikey, it doesnt take long does it? Someone texted me a joke about this event tonight. I wont repeat it obviously, but it always happens doesnt it, after Challenger, after Dunblane, after 9/11, within a day or two the jokes start doing the rounds.

[William Paquet]

There is an old saying, "whistling past the graveyard" that basically satisfies the same need; make fun of something scary and it's easier to deal with. Granted, some jokes are simply people being royal asses, but it is very common to mock that which we abhor.

[Wayne Industries]

Crikey, it doesnt take long does it? Someone texted me a joke about this event tonight. I wont repeat it obviously, but it always happens doesnt it, after Challenger, after Dunblane, after 9/11, within a day or two the jokes start doing the rounds.

Yeah I got one too...people have to deal with it their own way I suppose. Not my style but to each his own I guess.

[Psylocke]

Im so glad im not living in america or have to raise a family and have loved ones there.....seriously.

[rilynil]

Im so glad im not living in america or have to raise a family and have loved ones there.....seriously.
There are problems for certain, but there are many upsides to living here. But how peaceful has Ireland been through the years? I believe Ireland has known its share of bloodshed.

I'm not trying to be difficult, but there are many tragedies around the world. There are wackos all around the globe waiting to go off.

[deaconbluezzz]

It's a horrible idea. Gun ownership is a right in this country, not a privilege. Raising the price on bullets is a blatant attempt by gun control activists to discourage law abiding citizens from owning/using guns.

This tragedy might have been lessened if the campus administrators had allowed guns on campus.


This tragedy would have been lessened considerably if the US would render the possession of handguns illegal and slap an automatic, unappealable 5 year jail sentence on anyone caught violating that law. Rifles, shotguns, black powder guns...fine. Handguns...only for cops.

It's way too easy to toss a couple of 9mm's and a dozen clips in a backpack and walk across campus undetected...not so much with a 30-06.

[Wayne Industries]

This tragedy would have been lessened considerably if the US would render the possession of handguns illegal and slap an automatic, unappealable 5 year jail sentence on anyone caught violating that law. Rifles, shotguns, black powder guns...fine. Handguns...only for cops.

It's way too easy to toss a couple of 9mm's and a dozen clips in a backpack and walk across campus undetected...not so much with a 30-06.

Ok sure, it's easy to say that banning handguns could've lessened this tragedy. He MIGHT not have been able to pull this off. OR he could've have obtained a gun ILLEGALLY anyway and go through with his plan, or make a bomb, or make a molotov ****tails or whatever else insane people do. The point is, banning anything (guns, knives, bow and arrows) doesn't stop people from doing stupid things. It MIGHT have been easier for him to start but I don't see banning handguns would've prevented him from doing what he set out to do.

[Wayne Industries]

This tragedy would have been lessened considerably if the US would render the possession of handguns illegal and slap an automatic, unappealable 5 year jail sentence on anyone caught violating that law. Rifles, shotguns, black powder guns...fine. Handguns...only for cops.

It's way too easy to toss a couple of 9mm's and a dozen clips in a backpack and walk across campus undetected...not so much with a 30-06.

"Charles Joseph Whitman (June 24, 1941 – August 1, 1966) was a student at the University of Texas at Austin and a Marine, who is known for having ascended The University's 27-story tower on August 1, 1966 and shot at passersby in the city and on the campus below, having killed his mother and his wife the night before. In all Whitman killed 15 people and wounded 31 others before he was shot dead by Austin police ..... used Remington 700 bolt-action hunting rifle with a 4x Leupold Scope, the M1 Carbine, a .35 caliber Remington rifle, three pistols....." SO should we have banned rifles??

[deaconbluezzz]

"Charles Joseph Whitman (June 24, 1941 – August 1, 1966) was a student at the University of Texas at Austin and a Marine, who is known for having ascended The University's 27-story tower on August 1, 1966 and shot at passersby in the city and on the campus below, having killed his mother and his wife the night before. In all Whitman killed 15 people and wounded 31 others before he was shot dead by Austin police ..... used Remington 700 bolt-action hunting rifle with a 4x Leupold Scope, the M1 Carbine, a .35 caliber Remington rifle, three pistols....." SO should we have banned rifles??

All I'm saying is, take a look at the vast majority of robberies, murders, and gun-related violence in the US, and you'll see that the weapon of choice is a handgun. There is absolutely no need for an average citizen to own one. Don't preach to me about home protection either, 'cuz you ask any cop and he'll tell you that you're much better off hitting someone who breaks into your house at night with a shotgun rather than a 9mm.

America really needs to evolve past this cowboy/gunslinger mentality.

[Wayne Industries]

All I'm saying is, take a look at the vast majority of robberies, murders, and gun-related violence in the US, and you'll see that the weapon of choice is a handgun. There is absolutely no need for an average citizen to own one. Don't preach to me about home protection either, 'cuz you ask any cop and he'll tell you that you're much better off hitting someone who breaks into your house at night with a shotgun rather than a 9mm.

America really needs to evolve past this cowboy/gunslinger mentality.

Yes, that could be what we all should strive to be..."average citizens". ;) Just because a certain few feel that they don't have the self-control or that they believe that people in general don't have the capability to control themselves, that they feel the govt. should step in and control every facet of our lives and make us all the SAME people living the same lives. We might as well ban alcohol because people don't know not to drink and drive..And as far as the vast majority of violent crime...how many of those guns do you think were bought legally from a licensed gun store? Laws affect different people in different ways. I'm not always at home with my family and sometimes we visit friends/family that don't live on the "right side of the tracks". What good is my shotgun then if something was to happen? And believe me, the cops aren't always around either..;)

[armitage]

All I'm saying is, take a look at the vast majority of robberies, murders, and gun-related violence in the US, and you'll see that the weapon of choice is a handgun. There is absolutely no need for an average citizen to own one. Don't preach to me about home protection either, 'cuz you ask any cop and he'll tell you that you're much better off hitting someone who breaks into your house at night with a shotgun rather than a 9mm.

America really needs to evolve past this cowboy/gunslinger mentality.


Once again, everybody is subject to the consequences of their own actions.
Stop blaming guns and start looking at the people weilding them.
You say the majority of murderers and robbers prefer using guns.
Do you think these people would find another way to carry out their ill intent if there were no guns available?
The question isn't why these people use guns to commit crimes. The question is why are they commiting the crime in the first place.

[The Watcher]

I wonder how many people involved in the Virginia Tech massacre still feel that guns should be banned on campus.

How many of those deaths could have been prevented if a faculty member or student advisor had been allowed to carry a weapon? Did we learn nothing from the Columbine tragedy?

Law enforcement is reactionary by nature. They usually get involved after a crime has been committed.

The mainstream media is notorious for ignoring the fact that citizens have used guns to prevent Columbine type massacres:

http://www.thepriceofliberty.org/04/01/13/lang.htm

[JM28Cardiff]

Once again, everybody is subject to the consequences of their own actions.
Stop blaming guns and start looking at the people weilding them.
You say the majority of murderers and robbers prefer using guns.
Do you think these people would find another way to carry out their ill intent if there were no guns available?
The question isn't why these people use guns to commit crimes. The question is why are they commiting the crime in the first place.

Isnt it a bit easier to kill someone with a gun though (if someone is that way inclined), because you can do it at some distance, all you have to do is pull a little trigger, rather than get up close and stick a knife in someones flesh? Doesnt a gun in some way depersonalise it, you not physically touching somone or grappling with them?

[lord odin]

All I'm saying is, take a look at the vast majority of robberies, murders, and gun-related violence in the US, and you'll see that the weapon of choice is a handgun. There is absolutely no need for an average citizen to own one. Don't preach to me about home protection either, 'cuz you ask any cop and he'll tell you that you're much better off hitting someone who breaks into your house at night with a shotgun rather than a 9mm.

America really needs to evolve past this cowboy/gunslinger mentality.
I own a gun and if somebody breaks into my house i`m going to think they also have one and I hope i`m faster at using mine than him.
As for banning guns if they were banned today on saturday i`d get one illegally by sunday if I get in legal trouble because I used it against a thief who broke into my home well i`ll live with it rather than being shot dead in my home by someone who also has an illegal gun.
I said it once and i`ll say it again guns don`t kill people,people kill people.
I`ve yet to see a gun put a bullet in the chamber point and fire by itself.

[deaconbluezzz]

I said it once and i`ll say it again guns don`t kill people,people kill people.


That is one of the biggest POS quotes I've ever heard, and I'm frikkin' tired of hearing it. I've yet to hear a story of a person going on a killing spree with a Bowie knife.

This is why I generally refrain from getting into arguements such as this...be it "Catholicism is a joke", "Handguns ought to be illegal", or "Your President is a moron". As Frank Zappa once said...

"One of my favorite philosophical tenets is that people will agree with you only if they already agree with you. You do not change people's minds."

[deaconbluezzz]

Yes, that could be what we all should strive to be..."average citizens". ;)

Oh yes...I forgot, you're special.

Enjoy the ride home tonight in that hovercar you created.:rolleyes:

[armitage]

Isnt it a bit easier to kill someone with a gun though (if someone is that way inclined), because you can do it at some distance, all you have to do is pull a little trigger, rather than get up close and stick a knife in someones flesh? Doesnt a gun in some way depersonalise it, you not physically touching somone or grappling with them?

I understand what you are getting at.
However.
My question....that you won't answer....is..where is the initial desire to kill someone coming from?????????
Money? Psychotic urges? etc.etc.
The way they do it is secondary nature, wheter by gun or knife or whatever. Would these people still commit crimes if they did not have guns available?
I say yes.
This Cho guy, he obviously preplanned all of this, which means he was disturbed enough to say "I'm going to kill alot of people, here's how I'll do it." He should have been institutionalized in the first place, and that is what the media was so slow in covering.
This is a "pass the buck society" and his situation was clearly that. He had several complaints, some of which included stalking and violent/ disturbing writings. His everyday interactions were abnormal and he was ordered to under go evaluation. They dropped the ball,plain and simple.
Do you honestly think he would have had a problem sticking someone with a knife? I don't, and I wouldn't want to be the one to find out.
Maybe he couldn't have killed on a mass scale all at once, but look at Ted Bundy or John Wayne Gacy....they never used a gun and how many people between the two of them were murdered? Gacy raped and murdered 33 known victims, 27 which were buried beneath his porch. He didn't use a gun. Bundy confessed to 30 murders.
When someone is robbed at gun point, you have to ask why the hell is this guy robbing me? People are also robbed by two or three thugs beating someone down and taking their purse or wallet. The other day on the news a guy broke into a ladie's house until she came home and suprised him, he beat her, tied her up and stole her money and truck...he didn't use a gun.
He later sold the Blazer for $40. To buy drugs no doubt.
So now my tirade is over the only real point I'm trying to make is that you have to place the responsibility of someones actions on that person. I own guns but have never shot someone and I don't intend to. And there are thousands upon thousands like me who never will.

[deaconbluezzz]

My question....that you won't answer....is..where is the initial desire to kill someone coming from?????????
Money? Psychotic urges? etc.etc.

One of my favorite columnists, Leonard Pitts Jr., addressed this today in the paper...

<quote>

Nikki Giovanni, one of Cho's prior professors...

"I know we're talking about a troubled youngster and crap like that," she said, "but troubled youngsters get drunk and jump off buildings; troubled youngsters drink and drive. I've taught troubled youngsters. I've taught crazy people. It was the meanness that bothered me. It was a really mean streak."

Which echoes a lyric from Nebraska, Bruce Springsteen's song about a 1950s killing spree. Springsteen, in the voice of murderer Charles Starkweather, says:

"They wanted to know why I did what I did

Well, sir, I guess there's just a meanness in this world.''

You hear few people putting it that way, which isn't surprising. After you've established that there is meanness in the world, where do you go from there? Blame the police or mental health care, and the implication is that here is something we can get our hands around, something we can fix. But how can you fix meanness? How can you fix a deadness of the soul?

I mean, am I wrong? I don't want to understand this pathetic boy. I don't want to endure the slow torture of second-guessing. I don't know what it changes.

Well-loved people are still dead. And no one can give a single, sensible reason why. Some days, you look for answers. Some days, you seek things you can fix.

But some days, I think, you just have to swallow the bitter pill that there is a meanness in this world. That will never pass for wisdom. But it feels an awful lot like truth.

<endquote>

Which I guess sums up how I feel about people like Cho.

Some folks are born with cleft pallets, some with club feet, and some with Down's Syndrome. Those are physical, and can be reasoned out and explained. However, I believe that some people are just plain and simple born...evil. Not in a biblical sense, but just born without the capacity to feel pity, or remorse, or compassion, or love. Something in their brains just isn't wired correctly, or some chemical needed to connect neurons to one another simply doesn't exist. It's not as obvious as webbed toes, or missing fingers...but it's there.

So, while all the psychologists and sociologists wring their hands and wonder, "Why did he do this?" and "What could have caused this?", I still firmly believe that we simply have to learn to accept the fact that we share this planet with fundamentally flawed human beings...we always have, and we always will. It's not society's fault, it's not the parent's fault, and it's not even the individual's fault. It simply is what it is...a flaw in the DNA blueprint when those particular sets of chromosomes smacked together at conception.

[lord odin]

That is one of the biggest POS quotes I've ever heard, and I'm frikkin' tired of hearing it. I've yet to hear a story of a person going on a killing spree with a Bowie knife.

This is why I generally refrain from getting into arguements such as this...be it "Catholicism is a joke", "Handguns ought to be illegal", or "Your President is a moron". As Frank Zappa once said...

"One of my favorite philosophical tenets is that people will agree with you only if they already agree with you. You do not change people's minds."
Sorry you don`t like or agree but it`s a fact now if you`ll excuse me i`m finishing up my mega bomb.:)

[rilynil]

So, while all the psychologists and sociologists wring their hands and wonder, "Why did he do this?" and "What could have caused this?", I still firmly believe that we simply have to learn to accept the fact that we share this planet with fundamentally flawed human beings...we always have, and we always will. It's not society's fault, it's not the parent's fault, and ***it's not even the individual's fault. It simply is what it is...a flaw in the DNA blueprint when those particular sets of chromosomes smacked together at conception.***
This is the equivalent of saying "God made me this way. It's not my fault." Here's the way I view it: If you commit the crime, you're guilty, and you must pay for it. No way does can DNA be an excuse for murder. And even if it was, a crime was still committed and you're still guilty. Period.

[lord odin]

This is the equivalent of saying "God made me this way. It's not my fault." Here's the way I view it: If you commit the crime, you're guilty, and you must pay for it. No way does can DNA be an excuse for murder. And even if it was, a crime was still committed and you're still guilty. Period.
good point I agree and I hate the temporary insanity defense if I kill someone and get caught I was insane but when i`m in court i`m fine what a joke.
Now people complain about others killing for no reason well there`s millions in prisons that have reasons i`d worry about them first before one guy with a gun and a grudge.

[Wayne Industries]

Oh yes...I forgot, you're special.

Enjoy the ride home tonight in that hovercar you created.:rolleyes:

Hovercraft..man I wish..:rolleyes: Hey it's your choice not to have any handguns or any other type of firearm, as it is MY choice to have. You do see how that works right? People should really live their own lives and not tell eveyone else what's wrong or right based on they perceive as God given fact. And as far as this quote goes.." guns don't kill people,people kill people"...when was the last time a gun loaded and shot folks all by itself?? Just like when cars run over people by themselves and when bombs make themselves and blow themselves up or when planes fly themselves....Sure it's easier to kill with a gun but you can do it in so many other ways. Place blame where it's due.

[deaconbluezzz]

This is the equivalent of saying "God made me this way. It's not my fault." Here's the way I view it: If you commit the crime, you're guilty, and you must pay for it. No way does can DNA be an excuse for murder. And even if it was, a crime was still committed and you're still guilty. Period.

Don't understand me too quick here. I'm not saying this should excuse their actions. What we're dealing with are broken, dangerous individuals that need to be removed from society in any manner possible.

[Tommy Allison]

Anyone catch the NASA ordeal? The guy got a bad performance review, and then goes crazy. Takes a hostage, kills that person and himself.

Why is it that when someone who works at NASA goes postal, that they aren't going postal for the right reasons? Why couldn't the guy have taken a hostage, and would only free them if NASA would come clean about Extra-Terrestrials?

I mean, if you're going to be crazy, why not be crazy across the board? Getting a bad performance review is nothing compared to being able to get NASA to come clean about space aliens.

This week has been so screwy. I don't understand why some people go nuts and shoot up places, and why other others don't. Then again, in the words of a good friend of mine, if you understood it, you'd be just like them.

Then again... I don't think I'm going to get a job at NASA as a rocket scientist so there goes any ideas about holding a hostage until NASA tells us all what they know about aliens, Martians, the fake moon landing, and of course, how to get on the list for an extra-terrestrial penpal.

[deaconbluezzz]

And as far as this quote goes.." guns don't kill people,people kill people"...when was the last time a gun loaded and shot folks all by itself?? Just like when cars run over people by themselves and when bombs make themselves and blow themselves up or when planes fly themselves....Sure it's easier to kill with a gun but you can do it in so many other ways. Place blame where it's due.

Sure there are lots of ways to kill someone, but when a gun is availible to you, it just makes it that much easier to follow through with an abberant inclination to kill someone. It's much easier to pick up a Glock and shoot someone 12 feet away from you, than it is to take a butcher knife, wrestle them to the ground, and attempt to slit their throat. I have to believe that the harder you make it to kill someone, the less people will kill.

Kinda like if we got rid of planes, and the only way to get to California from New York was by covered wagon, you'd see a Helluva lot less Yankees caps in LA. Oh sure, some folks who really want to go there still will...but not nearly as many.

[Tommy Allison]

If we simply armed everyone, trained them to shoot wackos like this when they go on rampages, the number of innocent people who die by firearms would go down quite a bit.

An armed society, is a calm and polite society. What some people are advocating isn't the Nanny State, or Big Brother, it's the micro-managing mother state, where you have to ask permission to take a wizz.

Arm everyone and take the safetys off of everything. Let natural selection take its course, and I promise you, these sort of crazy people will be factored out. Of course, initially there will be a lot of accidents, but once the stupid factor themselves out, the country will start to resemble a country full of Can Do people, as opposed to people who live in fear of their neighbors.

You folks probably have gathered that two things are evident in my world. I'm pro gun, and I bought a new coffee maker.

[lord odin]

If we simply armed everyone, trained them to shoot wackos like this when they go on rampages, the number of innocent people who die by firearms would go down quite a bit.

An armed society, is a calm and polite society. What some people are advocating isn't the Nanny State, or Big Brother, it's the micro-managing mother state, where you have to ask permission to take a wizz.

Arm everyone and take the safetys off of everything. Let natural selection take its course, and I promise you, these sort of crazy people will be factored out. Of course, initially there will be a lot of accidents, but once the stupid factor themselves out, the country will start to resemble a country full of Can Do people, as opposed to people who live in fear of their neighbors.

You folks probably have gathered that two things are evident in my world. I'm pro gun, and I bought a new coffee maker.

Best post in this thread.:thumbs2:

[rilynil]

There's no doubt that people kill people. Guns just make it easy.

[Psylocke]

There are problems for certain, but there are many upsides to living here. But how peaceful has Ireland been through the years? I believe Ireland has known its share of bloodshed.

I'm not trying to be difficult, but there are many tragedies around the world. There are wackos all around the globe waiting to go off.

Sure Northern Irelands been had been a war zone (i dont actually live in the north,im down in the south,which is uber peaceful)
But the North was about politics and religion and you were always aware of it, it is very different to joe teenager going into his school and killing everyone in a heartbeat without any trouble.

[The Watcher]

If we simply armed everyone, trained them to shoot wackos like this when they go on rampages, the number of innocent people who die by firearms would go down quite a bit.

An armed society, is a calm and polite society. What some people are advocating isn't the Nanny State, or Big Brother, it's the micro-managing mother state, where you have to ask permission to take a wizz.

Arm everyone and take the safetys off of everything. Let natural selection take its course, and I promise you, these sort of crazy people will be factored out. Of course, initially there will be a lot of accidents, but once the stupid factor themselves out, the country will start to resemble a country full of Can Do people, as opposed to people who live in fear of their neighbors.

You folks probably have gathered that two things are evident in my world. I'm pro gun, and I bought a new coffee maker.

:thumbs2:

Have another cup of coffee.

[Psylocke]

Is there any other country beside America that has school shootings as often?
Its never reported worldwide,but im sure there must be.
I remember Dunblane,that was another truly disgusting story.

[lord odin]

Is there any other country beside America that has school shootings as often?
Its never reported worldwide,but im sure there must be.
I remember Dunblane,that was another truly disgusting story.
You got to love wiki.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_massacres

[Psylocke]

You got to love wiki.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_massacres

JESUS,seems to be in fashion over there :(

I know its not popular to say,but i think the government over there should do what the U.K did after Dunblane.

[teflondrunk]

The problem over here, isn't handguns it's lazy parenting. We have a generation of kids being raised by the tv, and not being disclipined at home. So you have people who have been running around like little monsters that never learned what is acceptable behavior or self disclipine from little on, and then they turn into teenagers. Who don't know how to deal with everyday social situations, like bullying and they explode. These kids that do this type of thing gave all kinds of signs that they could do something completely psychotic. But did their teachers, or parents TRULY step in and get them the help they need? No. As far as the UK goes, the uk now wants to ban swords. This has some of the people at some of the kendo forums who practice Iaido and other martial arts that practice with swords upset. Why? Has there been a rash of sword attracks in europe? Seems pretty f#$king rediculous to me.

[Wayne Industries]

The problem over here, isn't handguns it's lazy parenting. We have a generation of kids being raised by the tv, and not being disclipined at home. So you have people who have been running around like little monsters that never learned what is acceptable behavior or self disclipine from little on, and then they turn into teenagers. Who don't know how to deal with everyday social situations, like bullying and they explode. These kids that do this type of thing gave all kinds of signs that they could do something completely psychotic. But did their teachers, or parents TRULY step in and get them the help they need? No. As far as the UK goes, the uk now wants to ban swords. This has some of the people at some of the kendo forums who practice Iaido and other martial arts that practice with swords upset. Why? Has there been a rash of sword attracks in europe? Seems pretty f#$king rediculous to me.

I second this post..:buttrock: maybe after swords...sharp sticks..:rolleyes:

[Psylocke]

Swords?Really?
Hopefully not in Ireland lol,ill be having to give up a little collection :(

Maybe proper licensing should be implemented or somthing.

[lord odin]

Less guns more condoms.

[Psylocke]

Less guns more condoms.

LOl Agreed

[TNovak]

1. If guns kill people then do spoons make people fat? I can see having a fork, but with a spoon you can eat more food faster, spoons should be banned.

2. Banning handguns or all guns seems like a simple solution but lets look at it. Mass murder is already illegal. ALL guns were banned on this campus. People willing to break those laws are going to obey laws requiring registration or banning? riiiiiigghhhhhht.

3. Those states and locales with the tightest gun laws have the most crime and the most violence (DC, New York et al). Minnesota and Florida recently passed conceal and carry laws allowing citizens to carry guns. Anti-gun hysterics predicted shootouts on the streets over nothing and surges in gun violence. The exact opposite occured (as it always does). Why do you think muggers attack old ladies for their meager social security checks rather than drug dealers with wads of cash? Because old ladies aren't likely to be armed and able to defend themselves.

4. Shotguns do work better to protect homes, but guess what? The home isn't the only place you may need protection. Depending on your locale or history with crazy ex lovers or whatever. How many times has a woman gotten a restraining order only to have some guy disregard the law (imagine that) and kill her? Cops arrest the guy but I'm sure she would rather be alive.

5. The actual weapon of choice for people bent on killing innocents worldwide is not the handgun but the bomb. Israel, Ireland, Iraq, even the US (McVeigh killed over 200, clinic bombers, etc) have much higher death tolls. We have seen in Spain and the US that such people are innovative enough to use planes or trains and yes, sometimes even automobiles.

The simple fact is that had any person locked in that hall other than Cho had a firearm it is likely that many of those killed would have been spared.

[Psylocke]

I had a big long write out as a reply that i deleted .
It seems to be god honest that I cannot judge or have a truly honest oppinion on another countrys laws.I know that banning handguns etc worked here,there is hardly any civillian massarcres in the countrys with these laws.
but as teflondrunk said,the culture is very diferent.

I think that this is a very tricky subject as the pros and cons both have steep concesquences,and with every law,sick people are goin to twist it to there evil or twisted perseption (Westboro Baptist church anyone).
Its a sad situation when the outcome is so extreme.

[deaconbluezzz]

1. If guns kill people then do spoons make people fat? I can see having a fork, but with a spoon you can eat more food faster, spoons should be banned.

2. Banning handguns or all guns seems like a simple solution but lets look at it. Mass murder is already illegal. ALL guns were banned on this campus. People willing to break those laws are going to obey laws requiring registration or banning? riiiiiigghhhhhht.

3. Those states and locales with the tightest gun laws have the most crime and the most violence (DC, New York et al). Minnesota and Florida recently passed conceal and carry laws allowing citizens to carry guns. Anti-gun hysterics predicted shootouts on the streets over nothing and surges in gun violence. The exact opposite occured (as it always does). Why do you think muggers attack old ladies for their meager social security checks rather than drug dealers with wads of cash? Because old ladies aren't likely to be armed and able to defend themselves.

4. Shotguns do work better to protect homes, but guess what? The home isn't the only place you may need protection. Depending on your locale or history with crazy ex lovers or whatever. How many times has a woman gotten a restraining order only to have some guy disregard the law (imagine that) and kill her? Cops arrest the guy but I'm sure she would rather be alive.

5. The actual weapon of choice for people bent on killing innocents worldwide is not the handgun but the bomb. Israel, Ireland, Iraq, even the US (McVeigh killed over 200, clinic bombers, etc) have much higher death tolls. We have seen in Spain and the US that such people are innovative enough to use planes or trains and yes, sometimes even automobiles.

The simple fact is that had any person locked in that hall other than Cho had a firearm it is likely that many of those killed would have been spared.


I would really, really, really like to see the crime stats on how many folks have actually protected themselves - or others - because they were carrying a handgun at the time and were able to shoot the assailant. Factoring out liquor stores/party stores/gas stations where the owner keeps a gun under the counter because they are magnets for robbery attempts.

[TNovak]

I would really, really, really like to see the crime stats on how many folks have actually protected themselves - or others - because they were carrying a handgun at the time and were able to shoot the assailant. Factoring out liquor stores/party stores/gas stations where the owner keeps a gun under the counter because they are magnets for robbery attempts.

Well, here's a situation where almost the exact same thing as V-Tech occurred but was stopped by armed students

http://freestudents.blogspot.com/2007/04/when-mass-killers-meet-armed-resistance.html


Studies vary greatly as to how many defensive gun uses (DGU) there are per year in the US. The absolute lowest estimate is 108,000 and the highest is 2.5 million. An article that deals with why the estimates are so disparate is here

http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcdguse.html

ABC news says the number is somewhere between 800,000 and the 2.5 million. One reason the number should be considered low in any case is because many crimes are stopped merely by brandishing the gun or shooting in the air. Criminals don't want to get shot either, if they see a gun they will seek weaker prey.

I don't know if this factors out liquor stores and such, I suspect it doesn't, but what is the point of that? If you own a business I suggest you read your insurance policy. You will not be covered for damage due to "civil unrest". During the LA Riots stores were burned and looted in great numbers. Which ones weren't? Those with armed owners on their roofs keeping the angry mob away. There are only so many cops and they can't be everywhere.

[rilynil]

I'll say it again: There's no doubt that people kill people. Guns just make it easy.

[deaconbluezzz]

Well, here's a situation where almost the exact same thing as V-Tech occurred but was stopped by armed students

http://freestudents.blogspot.com/2007/04/when-mass-killers-meet-armed-resistance.html


Studies vary greatly as to how many defensive gun uses (DGU) there are per year in the US. The absolute lowest estimate is 108,000 and the highest is 2.5 million. An article that deals with why the estimates are so disparate is here

http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcdguse.html

ABC news says the number is somewhere between 800,000 and the 2.5 million. One reason the number should be considered low in any case is because many crimes are stopped merely by brandishing the gun or shooting in the air. Criminals don't want to get shot either, if they see a gun they will seek weaker prey.

I don't know if this factors out liquor stores and such, I suspect it doesn't, but what is the point of that? If you own a business I suggest you read your insurance policy. You will not be covered for damage due to "civil unrest". During the LA Riots stores were burned and looted in great numbers. Which ones weren't? Those with armed owners on their roofs keeping the angry mob away. There are only so many cops and they can't be everywhere.

I said to factor them out because they are, as I said, at a higher likelihood of being robbery targets. I want to know how many times someone has been walking/driving down the street, found themselves in a life or death situation, reached for their handgun, and scared off/shot the bad guy...successfully.

[lord odin]

I said to factor them out because they are, as I said, at a higher likelihood of being robbery targets. I want to know how many times someone has been walking/driving down the street, found themselves in a life or death situation, reached for their handgun, and scared off/shot the bad guy...successfully.

All I know is if giving the choice i`d rather have a gun instead of nothing and I don`t care what a suit in washington that has a bodygaurd says if they ban guns i`ll still have one.

[TNovak]

I said to factor them out because they are, as I said, at a higher likelihood of being robbery targets. I want to know how many times someone has been walking/driving down the street, found themselves in a life or death situation, reached for their handgun, and scared off/shot the bad guy...successfully.

I'm not trying to be a jerk, but I honestly don't know what to say to you. I provided you with an article that listed 4 specific mass shootings within the past 10 years that have been stopped by armed resistance. These are the exact same types of shootings this thread was about.

Appalachian School of Law, 2002 Armed Students stop gunman
Pearl High School, Pearl Mississipi 1997 Armed Asst Principal stops gunman
Edinboro Highschool Graduation Armed Restaurant Owner stops gunman
Trolley Square Mall, Salt Lake 2007 Armed patron stops gunman


I also provided you with a link that truthfully states the wide range of estimates of how often guns are used to prevent crime. Even the prepostorously low 108,000 figure is certainly substantial. Finally, I provided you with the example of storeowners successfully defending their stores and property during a riot, usually without firing or just firing in the air.

I am at work today but if I get time I will try to find the stats you want. If they are out there I guarantee that you will be surprised at the numbers.

[ANGRYCOMICMAN]

All I know is if giving the choice i`d rather have a gun instead of nothing and I don`t care what a suit in washington that has a bodygaurd says if they ban guns i`ll still have one.

Yeppers, I'm with you.:buttrock:



But, I'd rather have a light-saber and a disintegrater ray-gun.
Oh, and a personal force-shield.:thumbs2:

[lord odin]

Yeppers, I'm with you.:buttrock:



But, I'd rather have a light-saber and a disintegrater ray-gun.
Oh, and a personal force-shield.:thumbs2:
And don`t forget a whip and fedora.:buttrock:

[ANGRYCOMICMAN]

And don`t forget a whip and fedora.:buttrock:

It's always good to have different items in your arsenal.

And master them, all.

[Tetragrammaton]

Armed resistance shouldn't be a haphazard solution.

The wrong "do-gooder" with a gun could easily make a situation worse rather than better.

Properly trained and armed security and quicker, effective response by police is the only logical solution in my mind.

[The Watcher]

I said to factor them out because they are, as I said, at a higher likelihood of being robbery targets. I want to know how many times someone has been walking/driving down the street, found themselves in a life or death situation, reached for their handgun, and scared off/shot the bad guy...successfully.

I doubt that the type of statistics your looking for exist because you're asking someone to disprove a negative. It's like asking for statistics on burglaries that have been prevented because the homeowner had a large dog.

[The Watcher]

Armed resistance shouldn't be a haphazard solution.

The wrong "do-gooder" with a gun could easily make a situation worse rather than better.

Properly trained and armed security and quicker, effective response by police is the only logical solution in my mind.

Law enforcement is reactive by nature. Campus police didn't stop the Virginia Tech massacre, they didn't stop the Columbine massacre and they won't prevent another psycho from committing a massacre in the future.

[Tetragrammaton]

Then the question becomes why did campus police fail to prevent or limit these incidents and coming up with a solution.

[TNovak]

I agree that the statistics Deacon is looking for probably don't exist but here is something that is pretty close

http://www.justfacts.com/issues.guncontrol.asp

It is well researched and cites all original sources that can be checked so you don't have to worry about BS made up propaganda (or at least it can be exposed). I disagree with Tet (respectfully), you can't have enough cops and no matter how fast they react they will always be after the fact. This link shows that in states with conceal and carry laws, crime and murder actually go way down. Not just in small population states like Wyoming and Alaska, but in places like Florida. It may not seem logical to some, but it is what it is.

[Tetragrammaton]

I have no problem with people having and owning firearms for sport, hunting or self-protection.

I don't even have a problem with carry permits. But if you are going to allow private citizens to conceal and carry weapons on their person, I want them to be properly screened and trained before hand.

[deaconbluezzz]

I'm not trying to be a jerk, but I honestly don't know what to say to you. I provided you with an article that listed 4 specific mass shootings within the past 10 years that have been stopped by armed resistance. These are the exact same types of shootings this thread was about.

Appalachian School of Law, 2002 Armed Students stop gunman
Pearl High School, Pearl Mississipi 1997 Armed Asst Principal stops gunman
Edinboro Highschool Graduation Armed Restaurant Owner stops gunman
Trolley Square Mall, Salt Lake 2007 Armed patron stops gunman


I also provided you with a link that truthfully states the wide range of estimates of how often guns are used to prevent crime. Even the prepostorously low 108,000 figure is certainly substantial. Finally, I provided you with the example of storeowners successfully defending their stores and property during a riot, usually without firing or just firing in the air.

I am at work today but if I get time I will try to find the stats you want. If they are out there I guarantee that you will be surprised at the numbers.

No, you're not being a jerk, but you can site instances where Jane Doe pulled out a 9mm and killed a rapist & other crime prevention stats, and I can site instances where handguns were found by 7-year olds and used to shoot their playmates, and stats from other countries where handguns are illegal and the murder rate is practically nil...and we can go on, and on, and on...that's why these arguements are useless. You believe what you believe, and you can back it up...I believe what I believe, and I could back it up. At the end of the day, no matter how persuasive either side may be, no one will change their minds.

[risingstar]

School massacres aren't about guns or even easy access to guns. People aren't talking to each other. Moreover, most don't even know how (or even how to make the time). Often enough, it's a last resort measure to send a really sad and desperate message.

We all know that kids today aren't getting anywhere near the type of education (and services) and parental attention that most of us did.

There's a sociopathic undertone that's uncomfortably setting in as something common place in society today. We see little remorse, little accountibility, and far too much finger pointing.

JMO

[rilynil]

School massacres aren't about guns or even easy access to guns. People aren't talking to each other. Moreover, most don't even know how (or even how to make the time). Often enough, it's a last resort measure to send a really sad and desperate message.

We all know that kids today aren't getting anywhere near the type of education (and services) and parental attention that most of us did.

There's a sociopathic undertone that's uncomfortably setting in as something common place in society today. We see little remorse, little accountibility, and far too much finger pointing.

JMO
I agree completely. The problem nor the solution is a simple case of "packing heat." I believe there are terrible shadows swimming just below the surface of today's society. There are no easy answers.

[William Paquet]

School massacres aren't about guns or even easy access to guns. People aren't talking to each other. Moreover, most don't even know how (or even how to make the time). Often enough, it's a last resort measure to send a really sad and desperate message.

We all know that kids today aren't getting anywhere near the type of education (and services) and parental attention that most of us did.

There's a sociopathic undertone that's uncomfortably setting in as something common place in society today. We see little remorse, little accountibility, and far too much finger pointing.

JMO

Succinct and dead on. All I would add is the pervasive narcicisim within the hideous culture of MTV, reality shows, and demands of rights without the accompanying responisibilites. But I guess this is just more evidence to back up your statement, as opposed to a different pov.

Great post Risingstar.:thumbs2:

[Psylocke]

Succinct and dead on. All I would add is the pervasive narcicisim within the hideous culture of MTV, reality shows, and demands of rights without the accompanying responisibilites. But I guess this is just more evidence to back up your statement, as opposed to a different pov.

Great post Risingstar.:thumbs2:


But to an extent the "MTV" culture (even tho nobody watches mtv anymore) is all around the world,When it comes to kids being in a movement/culture (be it Skaters,Emo,Punk,hip/hop,Hiltonitis etc etc),Kids will always be like that.
But i hope to God when American kids are watching shows like "sweet 16" that they know that isnt normal behaviour,Right?,In Europe its promoted as a poke fun of American culture which is sad in a way,I hope it isnt promoted as some sort of "goal" or normal reality program over there.

[rilynil]

But to an extent the "MTV" culture (even tho nobody watches mtv anymore) is all around the world,When it comes to kids being in a movement/culture (be it Skaters,Emo,Punk,hip/hop,Hiltonitis etc etc),Kids will always be like that.
But i hope to God when American kids are watching shows like "sweet 16" that they know that isnt normal behaviour,Right?,In Europe its promoted as a poke fun of American culture which is sad in a way,I hope it isnt promoted as some sort of "goal" or normal reality program over there.
Americans know what they see on TV is not the gospel. Jeez, give us some credit. :rolleyes:

[armitage]

All I know is if giving the choice i`d rather have a gun instead of nothing and I don`t care what a suit in washington that has a bodygaurd says if they ban guns i`ll still have one.

F**K Yeah!:buttrock: :buttrock:

[Psylocke]

Americans know what they see on TV is not the gospel. Jeez, give us some credit. :rolleyes:

LOL,well i was talkin about the kids :D
And Credit... trying to stay away from any presient bashing,Fool you once,Fool you twice lol ;)

[rilynil]

LOL,well i was talkin about the kids :D
And Credit... trying to stay away from any presient bashing,Fool you once,Fool you twice lol ;)
Plenty of people see the error of electing Bush. It's pretty much a lock that he'll leave office as one of the most unpopular presidents in American history. I just wish more people could have seen the warning signs instead of electing him not once but twice. :banghead:

[deaconbluezzz]

Plenty of people see the error of electing Bush. It's pretty much a lock that he'll leave office as one of the most unpopular presidents in American history. I just wish more people could have seen the warning signs instead of electing him not once but twice. :banghead:

Yeah, I remember telling my father in '03 that he would go down in history as a president that made Nixon look good, and he just stared at me like I had lost my mind.

[The Watcher]

LOL,well i was talkin about the kids :D
And Credit... trying to stay away from any presient bashing,Fool you once,Fool you twice lol ;)

Plenty of people see the error of electing Bush. It's pretty much a lock that he'll leave office as one of the most unpopular presidents in American history. I just wish more people could have seen the warning signs instead of electing him not once but twice. :banghead:

Yeah, I remember telling my father in '03 that he would go down in history as a president that made Nixon look good, and he just stared at me like I had lost my mind.

Harrold's point is proven once again.

...I've read this board long enough to see that the the snide comments of a political nature nearly always come from the left.

[Harrold]

I'm still trying to figure out what Bush has to do with a murder spree in Virginia. Would calling these comments idiotic be seen as personal attacks? I'm not implying that the members that posted are idiotic, heavens no. I do feel the injection of Bush in this discussion is rather retarded though.

[rilynil]

Watcher and Harrold, Psylocke mentioned Bush, and I commented on it. In other words, the topic veered. Only Psylocke can say for certain why Bush was first mentioned, but I felt Psylocke's recent comments were pertaining to an uneasiness with America.

Plus, my comments weren't at all snide. They were stating my opinion. Plus, the comment about Bush's popularity is not an opinion. It's been proven in poll after poll.

It's perfectly OK to be displeased with public officials. And no, this isn't a left vs. right thing. I don't care to carry a specific political banner. The Bush comments didn't deal with the Virginia Tech shootings, but, like I said, the topic veered.

I'm sorry the topic upsets you.

[Psylocke]

If you read over what was said,it was just a passin comment about the stereotyped view Americans have in other countries.that is all.I mentioned "my sweet 16" and the president to easily explaine why other countrys might believe America hasnt got credit.It wasnt directly to do with the shootings.It originated from the American culture conversation goin on in here.

[The Watcher]

...

[deaconbluezzz]

I'm still trying to figure out what Bush has to do with a murder spree in Virginia. Would calling these comments idiotic be seen as personal attacks? I'm not implying that the members that posted are idiotic, heavens no. I do feel the injection of Bush in this discussion is rather retarded though.

Call me as idiotic as you please, I can take it ;)

Oh, and no interjection of Bush is as retarded as the man has shown himself to be...over...and over...and over.