And we think gas prices are bad here......

[Comicboy]

Most expensive places to buy gas

1. Sierra Leone - $18.42
2. Aruba - $12.03
3. Bosnia-Herzegovina - $10.86
4. Eritrea - $9.58
5. Norway - $8.73
6. United Kingdom - $8.38
7. Netherlands - $8.37
8. Monaco - $8.31
9. Iceland - $8.28
10. Belgium - $8.22

111. United States $3.45

Where gasoline is cheapest

1. Venezuela - 12 cents
2. Iran - 40 cents
3. Saudi Arabia - 45 cents
4. Libya - 50 cents
5. Swaziland - 54 cents
6. Qatar - 73 cents
7. Bahrain - 81 cents
8. Egypt - 89 cents
9. Kuwait - 90 cents
10. Seychelles - 98 cents

45. United States - $3.45

[fenix v.2.0]

damn, $3.24 to fill up my truck in Venezula. I can't even get a gallon here in the US :(

[endsongjen]

wow. for real? its $8 in the uk?!

[CessnaDriver]

If the proper decisions had been made ten years ago, we wouldnt have high gas prices.

Too extreme of environmental concerns swayed the public, the public spoke, the politicos listened.

No new drilling, no new oil rigs, no new refinerys.
No new nukes too while were at it. Stupid mistake.

NO CHEAP GAS.

Oh but we want our SUVs too please.


The bed was made, now we sleep in it.

Maybe people will wake up and realize that we DO have massive resources here at home. But it will take years to get it going if the decisions were even made now.

This is economics 101 first ten minutes of class.
Supply and demand.

[MACATTACK]

In London my local petrol station (Tesco) charges £1.09 for a litre of unleaded petrol, and I believe that is quite cheap compared to other parts of the UK. The news yesterday predicted that prices will keep rising to £1.50 per litre by next year.

Im not too sure how that translates exactly into US Dollars and gallons, but you can bet it wont be cheap.

[Davidian]

Last time I filled up my tank, I paid $3.93/gallon. :thumbsdow

[Averone]

If the proper decisions had been made ten years ago, we wouldnt have high gas prices.

Too extreme of environmental concerns swayed the public, the public spoke, the politicos listened.

No new drilling, no new oil rigs, no new refinerys.
No new nukes too while were at it. Stupid mistake.

NO CHEAP GAS.

Oh but we want our SUVs too please.


The bed was made, now we sleep in it.

Maybe people will wake up and realize that we DO have massive resources here at home. But it will take years to get it going if the decisions were even made now.

This is economics 101 first ten minutes of class.
Supply and demand.

Humm, I was thinking that’s what are president was doing for the last eight yrs, sleeping with the oil companies! Have you taken a look at what their profit reports are as of late. Let stick it to them before he leaves the office!! God, I cant wait till next year! It cant come soon enough. Not to say there is an easy fix but this admin. didnt help a bit!

[Comicboy]

C'mon guys no Bush bashin or politics, I don't want this closed. This both fascinates and baffles the bejeezus outta me. I don't pretend to understand the first thing about the economics or intricacies of oil and gasoline. How is it that gas in Swaziland (betcha didn't think I knew where that was did ya? :laugh:) is .54 and has twice the GDP of Sierra Leone yet their gas is damn near $20?



What's gas in Hawaii? Ours right now in southern Wisconsin is $3.54.

[Bullseye]

We are paying the equivalent of $1.88 a litre here in Ireland.

How many litres in a gallon?

[Bullseye]

Oil barrel: 42 US gallons, 158.9873 litres (approx 3.8) So we are paying $7.144 a gallon.

[CessnaDriver]

Humm, I was thinking that’s what are president was doing for the last eight yrs, sleeping with the oil companies! Have you taken a look at what their profit reports are as of late. Let stick it to them before he leaves the office!! God, I cant wait till next year! It cant come soon enough. Not to say there is an easy fix but this admin. didnt help a bit!

I know this comes as a shock, Presidents can't really do much about oil prices.
He has said we are "addicted to oil" passed new CAFE standards, and not exactly championed going after MORE oil by anyones standard. In fact he has signed on to to the whole global warming hype.

WE the people, created the fertile grounds for the existing oil companys and pseudo monopolies with our insistance upon reducing the ability for the free markets to compete for new oil resources. We should be offering government lottos to smaller companys to go out there in Alaska and N. Dakota, and offshore to get that oil! It is factual we have VAST untapped domestic resources...

http://bp0.blogger.com/_orkXxp0bhEA/Rj_L7EFXTKI/AAAAAAAAAH0/ZqfsVI-gt5Y/s400/nozone.jpg


See that yellow area by Cuba?

China drills there, no doubt slant drilling to OUR oil field is on the agenda too.


Cause and effect.
Poor national energy policy decisions were made long ago, now we brew in the repercussions.

We wanted no drilling, we want no new refineries, We wanted no new nukes, we wanted special blends of gas, we want our SUVs too.

It ain't rocket science.

Fact: We have vast untapped domestic resources.



The U.S. Is Poised to Hit a New Oil Gusher

http://www.kiplinger.com/businessresource/forecast/archive/The_U.S._Poised_to_hit_New_Oil_Gusher_080317.html
A new black gold rush is under way, this time in North Dakota. The potential payoff is huge -- up to 100 billion barrels of oil. That�s twice the size of Alaska�s reserves and potentially enough to meet all U.S. oil needs for two decades.



North Dakota oil finds a big one
by Dan Gunderson, Minnesota Public Radio


http://minnesota.publicradio.org/display/web/2008/04/10/ndoil/
The oil industry is booming in North Dakota, and a new study is likely to encourage even more development. The U.S. Geological Survey says North Dakota has the largest recoverable oil formation in the lower 48 states.




And as for large oil companys. be careful what you wish for, it's not as simply as it seems...
Just some things to consider, that ripping "big oil" a new one all of a sudden would not be a good thing.........


Exxon-Mobil Paid $3 in Taxes for Every $1 of Profit

http://nationaleconomist.com/blog/20...n-in-q1-taxes/

"The breakdown, according to Perry, is $9.3 billion in income taxes, $8.4 billion in sales-based taxes and $11.6 billion in other taxes.
Thus, Exxon-Mobil paid nearly $3 in taxes for every $1 in income. Exxon-Mobil’s income taxes of $9.3 billion in Q1 2008 also set a new all-time record for the highest amount of income taxes ever paid by a U.S. corporation in a single quarter."


George Will recently pointed out...

• ExxonMobil's 2007 profit of $40.6 billion annoys you. Do you know that its profit, relative to its revenue, was smaller than Microsoft's and many other corporations'? And that reducing ExxonMobil's profits will injure people who participate in mutual funds, index funds and pension funds that own 52 percent of the company?



Just pointing out, that a corporation that large and that much money is involved far more deeply than what people think at first blush.

So if you gun for them, you better have a plan that will replace all the things that are dependant upon their success. Which is surprisingly considerable and often far removed from what we first would think and beyond the sting at the fuel pump.

Do not read me wrong, I am for far more free market forces ok? We dont really have that right now. That is the only thing that makes things cheap. Competition.


Also "Big oil" globally?
Only two companys I think are American in the top ten. We DO want to have some big companys in that group. Many of those top ten are state owned too. Not even true companys.


just keep this stuff in mind.

It's complex, but supply and demand and free markets is as simple as it is to understand how to fix it.


Until the next big energy revolutionary breakthrough, that one day will come and people will laugh someday we used oil for fuel.
Until then we need oil to make our fuels. Dont feel guilty about it.

[Jesse321]

Until the next big energy revolutionary breakthrough, that one day will come and people will laugh someday we used oil for fuel.
Solar
Hydro
Wind
Natural Gas
Geothermal
Hydrogen
Bio-fuels

And those are just the tip of the iceberg, there are PLENTY of other sources of energy that would cut our dependency on fossil fuels .... most all of which are already being expeditiously used in other parts of the world!

But lets not tell the good old boys they can't have their trucks, guns and nukes ... cause that just doesn't equate!!!

[CessnaDriver]

Solar
Hydro
Wind
Natural Gas
Geothermal
Hydrogen

And those are just the tip of the iceberg, there are PLENTY of other sources of energy that would cut our dependency on fossil fuels .... most all of which are already being expeditiously used in other parts of the world!~

But lets not tell the good old boys they can't have their trucks, guns and nukes ... cause that just doesn't equate!!!

Sure some of those things are options or already being tried.
But all our fleets of construction equipment cars, military, buses, aircraft use fossil fuels today, now.
You dont replace that in a day, and much of that simply cannot do the job our engines do right now.
And Americans are in LOVE with SUV's there is a culture there, not all people run out and choose a prius.

I am all for FREEDOM of choice, ok, if you want to buy or install stuff great, want to start an energy company that uses them good for you. tax breaks cetainly are already there. but do not force it on anyone. A better solution sells itself.

Nothing yet has kicked fossils fuels ass yet.


Those thing are not viable replacments for right now, and come at great costs to business to convert.

Your forgot nuclear by the way. One of the best solutions there is. Of course, we dont build new reactors much these days.

It will get there, but I think the next big thing remains yet undiscovered. Zero Point Energy perhaps. Something truly revolutionary.
Until then.. DRILL. and sure alternative sources are great, but no single one of them can top fossil fuels. That is fact.

[TNovak]

Solar
Hydro
Wind
Natural Gas
Geothermal
Hydrogen
Bio-fuels

And those are just the tip of the iceberg, there are PLENTY of other sources of energy that would cut our dependency on fossil fuels .... most all of which are already being expeditiously used in other parts of the world!~

But lets not tell the good old boys they can't have their trucks, guns and nukes ... cause that just doesn't equate!!!


Nobody stops the ongoing use or production of any of those sources Jesse, in fact some of them are subsidized at outrageous taxpayer cost with little or at least less than what it costs benefits. The fact is that while they are good to be used where they can, most aren't that much help. For example, solar is nice but to heat a single home or provide much energy at all requires HUGE panels that must be cleaned and moved to get the benefit. Wind needs huge turbines and land hogging turbine fieldsand then must move and store the generated energy usually miles away. Geothermal energy is only accessible for a nonprohibitive price in a few areas of the country and is difficult to transfer or store. Natural gas is already used as much as possible and isn't cheap either. Biofuels costs more than the benefit and contributes to high food prices and even some shortages. Hydrogen has great promise but as yet isn't a cost effective alternative, not to say that it couldn't be, just that as yet it isn't.

What do guns and nukes have to do with fuel costs?

[Jesse321]

I didn't forget Nuclear, as far as I'm concerned it's not a viable option, it's proven to be more dangerous than beneficial when ti goes haywire, and the waste that it creates is just another problem that adds (excuse the expression) fuel to the fire.

Any new source (like the ones that I mentioned) are going to have to be renewable and non-polluting or else we're going to be in the same boat in 20 years time.

The US needs to start thinking in terms larger than 4 or 8 year increments.

[CessnaDriver]

I didn't forget Nuclear, as far as I'm concerned it's not a viable option, it's proven to be more dangerous than beneficial when ti goes haywire, and the waste that it creates is just another problem that adds (excuse the expression) fuel to the fire.

Any new source (like the ones that I mentioned) are going to have to be renewable and non-polluting or else we're going to be in the same boat in 20 years time.

The US needs to start thinking in terms larger than 4 or 8 year increments.

Nuclear is fine. Ask the French. Radical enviornmentalists have demonized it and we pay a price because of it now.

Waste is a temporary issue, we will eventually learn to process it or dispose of it. Eventually we could just lob it into the sun someday afterall. Yes, that is in the future, but doable. It makes too much sense, and many green thinkers have come around and embraced it.

[CessnaDriver]

Doable.........


http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/inf40.html

France derives over 75% of its electricity from nuclear energy. This is due to a long-standing policy based on energy security.
France is the world's largest net exporter of electricity due to its very low cost of generation, and gains over EUR 3 billion per year from this.
France has been very active in developing nuclear technology. Reactors and fuel products and services are a major export.


France has 59 nuclear reactors operated by Electricité de France (EdF) with total capacity of over 63 GWe, supplying over 430 billion kWh per year of electricity, 78% of the total generated there. In 2005 French electricity generation was 549 billion kWh net and consumption 482 billion kWh - 7700 kWh per person. Over the last decade France has exported 60-70 billion kWh net each year and EdF expects exports to continue at 65-70 TWh/yr.

[Jesse321]

TN, I have solar panels on my house ... they heat my pool and my hot water in the house, with a back up tankless heater for days when the panels can't work for lack of sunlight. My electric bill has dropped by more then 50% since I had the panels installed (and I finally have a warm pool :) ) I'm currently in the process of having my kitchen converted to natural gas, and addnig on a generator that will power my ENTIRE house on propane in case of power outages (like from hurricanes)

I have a friend in Arizona that has a wind turbine (1 turbine) on her house that powers a lot of her household needs.

I understand the concept that "Rome wasn't built in a day" but if we don't start somewhere then we get NO WHERE!!

The point is that the sources ARE THERE, we just have to adjust our mentality to start using them! And notice I never said "ELIMINATE" our dependency (I'm not stupid, I know that's not going to happen at least not in our lifetime) I said "CUT" our dependency. Again, the problem is the mentality, it always has to be an "all or nothing deal" with the US ... we have to stop thinking in absolutes. Problems can be solved, even if they have to be solved in little steps rather than "giant leaps."

[Jesse321]

Nuclear is fine. Ask the French. Radical enviornmentalists have demonized it and we pay a price because of it now.

Waste is a temporary issue, we will eventually learn to process it or dispose of it. Eventually we could just lob it into the sun someday afterall. Yes, that is in the future, but doable. It makes too much sense, and many green thinkers have come around and embraced it.
Oh I get it now ... your ideas are "doable" but none of the others are because they don't resolve the issues immediately ... my apologies I didn't understand the permissible parameters of the discussion. :thumbs2:

BTW .. WADR ... I don't need to ask the French ... I have the Turkey Point Nuclear Power Plant not 10 miles from me on Key Biscayne. I fully understand the benefits and dangers of Nuclear energy ... it's just my personal opinion that the dangers outweigh the benefits.

[TNovak]

I'm not against solar or wind (but bio-fuels at the moment as the cost/benefit analysis stands I'm not excited about) energy and have no doubt that used as a partial or secondary source they can reduce costs. Heating your pool and water accounted for 50% of your electric bill? What I am saying is to use it as a source for the masses, meaning all they have to do is flick on their switches, would take a lot.

In a sense you and Cessna are both right. I live in ND and it looks like some of the oil we have been sitting on for years is finally going to be profitable to get at. We should use ANWAR and off shore sources too, should have started 12 years ago when it was approved but vetoed. Now that oil is so expensive and demand world wide so high, maybe the large panels required to capture significant amounts of solar energy will make economic sense as well as environmental friendly sense, same with wind.

[Makkari1]

Most expensive places to buy gas

1. Sierra Leone - $18.42
2. Aruba - $12.03
3. Bosnia-Herzegovina - $10.86
4. Eritrea - $9.58
5. Norway - $8.73
6. United Kingdom - $8.38
7. Netherlands - $8.37
8. Monaco - $8.31
9. Iceland - $8.28
10. Belgium - $8.22

111. United States $3.45

Where gasoline is cheapest

1. Venezuela - 12 cents
2. Iran - 40 cents
3. Saudi Arabia - 45 cents
4. Libya - 50 cents
5. Swaziland - 54 cents
6. Qatar - 73 cents
7. Bahrain - 81 cents
8. Egypt - 89 cents
9. Kuwait - 90 cents
10. Seychelles - 98 cents

45. United States - $3.45

Are these prices in American dollars or in the native currency? In a lot of places the dollar buys more and in others places it buys less. Example: is the 89 cents in Egypt their money or U.S. money? If its ours then what is 89 U.S. cents compaired to 89 cents in Egypt. For all we know 89 cents of U.S. money might be $ 3.00 in Egyptian money.

[Jesse321]

I seen several of these sorts of articles (and some news reports on the subject) and I believe that these figures are the US equivalent in dollars, though I'm not sure about the unit of measure, because a lot of these countries use the metric system .. so there could be some conversion issues. :confused:

[Comicboy]

They are in US dollars. Like Mac said up there, 1.09 per liter. Roughly 4 liters in a gallon. The British Pound current exchange rate makes that roughly 2.15 per liter or 8.60 per gallon.

[CessnaDriver]

Oh I get it now ... your ideas are "doable" but none of the others are because they don't resolve the issues immediately ... my apologies I didn't understand the permissible parameters of the discussion. :thumbs2:

BTW .. WADR ... I don't need to ask the French ... I have the Turkey Point Nuclear Power Plant not 10 miles from me on Key Biscayne. I fully understand the benefits and dangers of Nuclear energy ... it's just my personal opinion that the dangers outweigh the benefits.

Your putting words in my mouth there and no need to get upset I am not defining any permissable parameters. The problems I promise you will not be solved on statue forum.

Personal opinions are great, we all have them. But facts support nuclear is safe and incredibly beneficial to the environment because the replace much dirtier to the enivoronment methods. The United States has operated multiple reactors at sea for many decades. Aircraft Carriers. Without incident.

Nothing is perfect. Even solutions you have suggested have downsides.

I have no problem with them if they work and someone wants to use them. More power to them. pun not intended. Simply none of them alone can or could replace what fossil fuel demand is right now, and will continue to grow to.

There is going to have to be compromise on all sides.

I simply say, we have compromised too much on NOT drilling for more domestic sources of oil. And now we are paying for it. Alternate known energys did NOT step up to plate and replace it. And likely will not be able to fully ever. We need to push for the next big revolutionary energy leap.

[CessnaDriver]

I'm not against solar or wind (but bio-fuels at the moment as the cost/benefit analysis stands I'm not excited about) energy and have no doubt that used as a partial or secondary source they can reduce costs. Heating your pool and water accounted for 50% of your electric bill? What I am saying is to use it as a source for the masses, meaning all they have to do is flick on their switches, would take a lot.

In a sense you and Cessna are both right. I live in ND and it looks like some of the oil we have been sitting on for years is finally going to be profitable to get at. We should use ANWAR and off shore sources too, should have started 12 years ago when it was approved but vetoed. Now that oil is so expensive and demand world wide so high, maybe the large panels required to capture significant amounts of solar energy will make economic sense as well as environmental friendly sense, same with wind.


If it works it works, if it make sense and solves someones energy issues great, if free market and choice prefer it, rock on! I celebrate it.

But no known single alternative is the full answer to fossil fuels and they have not reduced demand for oil to bring gas prices down. Even collectively.

Again, compromise.

We have been too heavy on the no drilling, and too heavy on pushing alternatives as a final solution, and not enough R&D on the next revolutionary breakthoughs.

I would rather instead of spending billions on global warmign studies that do nothing but guilt us and fill children with fear....

That that money had gone to researching NEW energy possibilities instead.

Far more useful

Oh well.

That is again, my opinion.

[Jesse321]

Because many weren't allowed to "step up to the plate" ... they were all laughed away as "tree huggin hippi ****" ... none of this stuff can even remotely be considered new technology. But, I do agree with you that we're now paying the price for mistakes made in the past ... I just don't limit those mistakes solely to limited drilling rights.

If alternative energy sources would have been taken more seriously in the mid to late 70's through the 80's, there's no telling where we could have been now ... but that's water under the bridge now, we are where we are and we need to deal with what we have now.

We can (at least) agree that there are benefits and downfalls to every "solution," but I think that we can also agree that the "status quo" isn't a viable solution either.

The problem now (as I see it) is we can't afford to continue making long term mistakes for short term goals ... we have to set our sites on fixing the problems over the long term, so that our grand children won't be having this same conversation 2, 3 or 4 decades down the line just for the sake of our own convenience now.

[CessnaDriver]

Because many weren't allowed to "step up to the plate" ... they were all laughed away as "tree huggin hippi ****" ... none of this stuff can even remotely be considered new technology. But, I do agree with you that we're now paying the price for mistakes made in the past ... I just don't limit those mistakes solely to limited drilling rights.

If alternative energy sources would have been taken more seriously in the mid to late 70's through the 80's, there's no telling where we could have been now ... but that's water under the bridge now, we are where we are and we need to deal with what we have now.

We can (at least) agree that there are benefits and downfalls to every "solution," but I think that we can also agree that the "status quo" isn't a viable solution either.

The problem now (as I see it) is we can't afford to continue making long term mistakes for short term goals ... we have to set our sites on fixing the problems over the long term, so that our grand children won't be having this same conversation 2, 3 or 4 decades down the line just for the sake of our own convenience now.


Design a better mousetrap, the world will beat a path to your door.

That is where the long term answer lies.

Without guilt, mandates, preaching, carbon credits, subsidys, tax breaks, or even giving one hoot about pollution. Simply it will be the next step.

Solutions that are so superior that conversion is obviously the answer.

Just like abandoning horses for cars. Just like ditching CRTs for flat screens.

That is where environmentalism should focus in my opinion. Not on changing hearts, but on superior solutions.

And for some energy needs, it has happened already, specific needs can be met with certain alternatives in some cases.

But eventually something huge will come and all this will behind us, History has taught us this, technological advancement is moving along quicker then ever.

Though obviously plastics will be with us a long time.
We wont get away from oil entirely.

[Jesse321]

Once again ... without saying it, you're using the very "all or nothing" stance I've been referring to (and no, you're not saying it in so many words, but it's clearly there) ... and it's exactly that stance that's getting us no where.

Just because a "solution" isn't "superior" right now, doesn't mean it won't be eventually ... the point is that every little bit helps.

For example ... you have a car that gets decent gas mileage, but right now you can't get one that gets better mileage (even though they do exist) ... does that mean you don't change the oil, make sure your car is properly tuned up, or make sure your tires are properly inflated??? All of these trivial actions contribute (in however a small way) to getting you better mileage with the car you have.

Will it make a HUGE difference at the end of the day, probably not, but it's SOMETHING you can do, until the day comes when you can afford the "better mouse trap."

This is just one example ... if more people did "little things" maybe just maybe, the big things wouldn't seem so big anymore.

[abarron]

D'oh
Ignore my post

[CessnaDriver]

Once again ... without saying it, you're using the very "all or nothing" stance I've been referring to (and no, you're not saying it in so many words, but it's clearly there) ... and it's exactly that stance that's getting us no where.

Just because a "solution" isn't "superior" right now, doesn't mean it won't be eventually ... the point is that every little bit helps.

For example ... you have a car that gets decent gas mileage, but right now you can't get one that gets better mileage (even though they do exist) ... does that mean you don't change the oil, make sure your car is properly tuned up, or make sure your tires are properly inflated??? All of these trivial actions contribute (in however a small way) to getting you better mileage with the car you have.

Will it make a HUGE difference at the end of the day, probably not, but it's SOMETHING you can do, until the day comes when you can afford the "better mouse trap."

This is just one example ... if more people did "little things" maybe just maybe, the big things wouldn't seem so big anymore.

yeah, but we need fuel now for our engines of commerce now. Short term and long term solutions are needed.

People are people. Expecting others to want to share environmentalists concerns or sacrifices in enough numbers and intensity and bank on that to solve the problems isn't realistic. Clearly it hasnt worked enough at all, after decades of getting the message out, demand is still high for gas. And worse, it can even create a backlash when it is too heavy handed as it has often been.

But people being people, they jump at something better, cheaper and easier.

The solutions offered should meet those requirements as much as possible.

Go with the grain, working with human nature, not against it so much just makes more sense to me then turning a lightbulb purchase decision at Target into a spiritual struggle.

It should just be a normal light bulb because we have plenty of nuclear power that is cheap.

[Jesse321]

With all due respect ... I give up ... you're absolutely hopeless. This is exactly the reason this country is in the state that it's in right now!

[scott]

I'am with Cessna on this one. China & India are growing economic giants that are going to use more oil. Supply & demand. Which is one reason that the U.S. should start drilling for our own oil like most other nations. I'am not against other feel good energy solutions, just do not think they are realistic right now or the foreseeable future.

[CessnaDriver]

With all due respect ... I give up ... you're absolutely hopeless. This is exactly the reason this country is in the state that it's in right now!

That is odd conclusion, because I have done nothing personally to stand in the way of any alternate energy. In fact I have said I celebrate it if it truly meets a market need.

I can work your solutions into my equation on some level.
Yet my solutions cannot fit into yours at all?
More drilling and more nuclear power.



I am incrediby hope-FUL. I do not see the state of this nation in some grand crisis beyond all resolve.
I know that is not the standard issue MSM memo but so be it. In fact, I think Americans have it better then ever and most especially compared to the average Earth dweller.
There most certainly is every reason to be optimistic.
As I know that these concerns today will not be forever.

[ANGRYCOMICMAN]

That is odd conclusion, because I have done nothing personally to stand in the way of any alternate energy. In fact I have said I celebrate it if it truly meets a market need.
[edited]
I As I know that these concerns today will not be forever.

You are, my friend are -
http://thegrandnarrative.files.wordpress.com/2007/11/beating-a-dead-horse.gif

Some, do not and never will understand global economics and just plain old supply & demand.

[biglebowski9999]

You are, my friend are -
http://thegrandnarrative.files.wordpress.com/2007/11/beating-a-dead-horse.gif

Some, do not and never will understand global economics and just plain old supply & demand.



So because Jesse does not think the long-term solution to our fuel crisis is "just drill for more oil" :rolleyes2 , then he must not understand simple suppy-and-demand economics? That's an interesting theory. LMK if I am laying the sarcasm on thick enough here. :thumbs2:

[sellin71]

I think that this has been a fair and balanced discussion. Now let's go find some oil!

[Jesse321]

So because Jesse does not think the long-term solution to our fuel crisis is "just drill for more oil" :rolleyes2 , then he must not understand simple suppy-and-demand economics? That's an interesting theory. LMK if I am laying the sarcasm on thick enough here. :thumbs2:
What Jesse understands is that fossil fuels are a finite resource, once the "supply" is gone, the "demand" is going to be irrelevant.

Well no it actually it won't be, I'm sure there will be wars fought over the lands of those with it (probably under the thin guise of some other pitiful excuse), hundreds of thousands will die in the name of it, the prices for it will soar, and people will have to pay more than they can afford while huge conglomerates rake in billions in profit for it until it's all gone.

Gee ... that sounds vaguely familiar ... I guess I must have seen it in a movie of the week or something. :rolleyes:

[sellin71]

I think what it all boils down to is, both sides are going to have to give and take. We will never settle anything or advance past the quagmire that we are in by bitterly arguing about basic philosphical differences and beliefs. Our political system has become all or nothing. Our nation continues to become divided along party lines. I myself lean towards the conservative side, but I am very open to certain liberal issues, one being the environment, but it can't be all or nothing, it is going to take time and cooperation from both sides. I fear until there is a third party (or fourth) our country is going to be stuck in neutral until it is too late.

[risingstar]

This is just one example ... if more people did "little things" maybe just maybe, the big things wouldn't seem so big anymore.

Jesse, if you don't mind my asking...

Might I ask how complicated a procedure was it to solar panel your house? Do you have a picture of what it looks like on your house? Is it on your roof or do you use those stand type things. Might I ask how much it cost, what the maintennence issues are, do these things break down, ease of use... etc...

We've (the better half and I) been seriously thinking about doing this too...

[Jesse321]

Not complicated at all .. the panels themselves cost about $2,500.00 installed (about the cost of an average sized pool water heater) there's little to no maintenance, it's just a series of pipes with panels attached to the roof of your house ... the only thing is that you have to have a pump powerful enough to run the water through them.

The more expensive part is hooking it up to the household plumbing system ... luckily I have friend that did that portion of the work for us as a substantially reduced price.

It's night time here now, so I can't take a picture of it, but they look like this

http://activerain.com/image_store/uploads/1/2/1/5/6/ar119163978565121.jpg

[risingstar]

Thanks!

We have skylight windows so it should be interesting. It snows and ices up quite a bit too in the East coast so I wondering what effect that might have on the panels, if any. We'll look into over the summer.

[CessnaDriver]

What I am arguing for is a balanced national energy policy.

Yes that includes alternate energy sources, but those just do not cut it in full, no way.
So we need more nuclear plants, we need more drilling at home too.

A policy that meets the needs, now and future growth.

not mandated and metered out by government,
not constant preaching to consumers to buy green or give up things or do with less, or remove choices.

There is a LOT of oil we can go after.
So dont worry about that running out anytime soon,
we will have moved on to the next thing long before then I am sure.

And eventually we will master nuclear fusion power plants. Not fission like we have now.


Now obviously we live in an era where C02 is hugely demonized. (yeah Im unconvinced but that is another debate and not my point) So of course using more gas or continuing to use gas upsets environmentalists. In fact many are happy it is costing more.

But hey guess what....

There are solutions being worked on for that too! and it does not involve giving up anything....

Imagine removing all the CO2 we put into the air and turning it back into fuel.

Think about the implications of that.


First Successful Demonstration of Carbon Dioxide Air Capture Technology Achieved
http://www.physorg.com/news96732819.html


Los Alamos to Create Energy from CO2 in the Air - Green Freedom
http://www.openecosource.org/renewable-energy/los-alamos-create-energy-co2-air-green-freedom

Imagine No Restrictions On Fossil-Fuel Usage And No Global Warming!
http://www.spacedaily.com/news/greenhouse-02b.html

Researchers at the U.S. Department of Energy's Los Alamos National Laboratory are studying a simple, cost effective method for extracting carbon dioxide directly from the air -- which could allow sustained use of fossil fuels while avoiding potential global climate change.


The method would allow researchers to harvest carbon dioxide from the air, reducing buildup of the so-called "greenhouse gas" in the atmosphere and allowing it to be converted into fuel.


Think about the above, even if your skeptical of C02 as the hobgoblin, this method STILL creates fuel solutions. Wow.

Again, the problems of today will not be the problems of tomorrow. We evolve and move on to better methods. Even if it is still depending on fossil fuels for the mean time.

[Jesse321]

Imagine removing all the CO2 we put into the air and turning it back into fuel.

Think about the implications of that.


First Successful Demonstration of Carbon Dioxide Air Capture Technology Achieved
http://www.physorg.com/news96732819.html


Los Alamos to Create Energy from CO2 in the Air - Green Freedom
http://www.openecosource.org/renewable-energy/los-alamos-create-energy-co2-air-green-freedom

Imagine No Restrictions On Fossil-Fuel Usage And No Global Warming!
http://www.spacedaily.com/news/greenhouse-02b.html

Researchers at the U.S. Department of Energy's Los Alamos National Laboratory are studying a simple, cost effective method for extracting carbon dioxide directly from the air -- which could allow sustained use of fossil fuels while avoiding potential global climate change.


The method would allow researchers to harvest carbon dioxide from the air, reducing buildup of the so-called "greenhouse gas" in the atmosphere and allowing it to be converted into fuel.


Wait a minute ... WAIT A MINUTE ... correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it you that was arguing that Global Warming and Greenhouse Gases didn't even exist?

If they don't exist, why are you worrying about technology that would if effect eradicate it ... in essensce you're erradicating a problem that you didn't even acknowledge was happening in the first place!

Make up your mind already!!

[Jesse321]

Thanks!

We have skylight windows so it should be interesting. It snows and ices up quite a bit too in the East coast so I wondering what effect that might have on the panels, if any. We'll look into over the summer.

I believe that there is a solution to that problem, but since I'm not in that an area where it is a problem, I never thought to ask about it. :(

[CessnaDriver]

Wait a minute ... WAIT A MINUTE ... correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it you that was arguing that Global Warming and Greenhouse Gases didn't even exist?

If they don't exist, why are you worrying about technology that would if effect eradicate it ... in essensce you're erradicating a problem that you didn't even acknowledge was happening in the first place!

Make up your mind already!!


Whoah. Slooooow down. Of course greenhouse gases exist. thank god or we would freeze like Mars.

Sure global warming exists, as much as global cooling exists.


I argue that they do not know yet how much mankinds impacts climate to convince me we must take drastic actions now to avoid catastrophe. I rather likey expect that mankinds impact is minimal.

Now,

That tech to extract C02 from the atmosphere and turn it into fuel.

Solves everyones concerns doesn't it?

Regardless of how much you think C02 impacts climate.

[CocoPUFF]

I want cheap Gas! Lets drill where we have to or light up who we have to! Close to 4 bucks a gallon is ridiculous!:mad:

[Comicboy]

All I know is I paid $85 to fill up my truck today!

Stimulous check = Gas Money :laugh:

[Makkari1]

I want cheap Gas! Lets drill where we have to or light up who we have to! Close to 4 bucks a gallon is ridiculous!:mad:

That's right we should have been drilling a long time ago.

[Makkari1]

All I know is I paid $85 to fill up my truck today!

Stimulous check = Gas Money :laugh:

That only takes care of one week what about next week?