the illusion we have a choice

[oddball]

i know i didn't vote for or approve this. you? 85 billion? what i don't understand is, if aig goes bankrupt, how will that throw the world into financial chaos? please explain. insurance is the biggest scam ever. another one of those loans with no payback, like when we bailed out the airlines that fired their employees anyway with all the money lining the CEO's pockets.

:banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

http://money.cnn.com/2008/09/16/news/companies/AIG/index.htm?cnn=yes

[Teague]

I hate this Federal bailout stuff, especially since the old white guys who caused it all have already absconded with the loot, and won't be held responsible whatsoever. America's recent history has been robber barons all over again.

But as for this bailout, I can see why the federal government saw the need for it; AIG goes down, and suddenly the mortgage crisis gets worse. Loans become insanely hard to get, and the economy spirals down farther. At least that's the fear, or one of them.

The question is whether or not the cure is worse than the disease, in these cases. And that's where an argument can be made.

[Babytoxie]

Damn, that $85 billion could have sent us to Mars...:rolleyes2

[nbr3bagshotrow]

They underwrite close to 62 Trillion of Derivative swaps. Which means they insure against losses of these and there are international clients. If all of a sudden $62 trillion is mucked up, you'd probably have a global crisis making this current mortage mess looking like a cakewalk.

[oddball]

They underwrite close to 62 Trillion of Derivative swaps. Which means they insure against losses of these and there are international clients. If all of a sudden $62 trillion is mucked up, you'd probably have a global crisis making this current mortage mess looking like a cakewalk.

so you're saying our global economy is in the hands of an insurance company? that's great. talk about a false bottom, as i'll always consider insurance as selling air. i also read that a lot of aig's investments are mortgage holdings. how is so vital a resource for the world allowed to run with no one at the wheel? shouldn't our government monitor these events? they're into everything else including listening to private phone conversations in the name of a so called patriot act.

[nbr3bagshotrow]

so you're saying our global economy is in the hands of an insurance company? that's great. talk about a false bottom, as i'll always consider insurance as selling air. i also read that a lot of aig's investments are mortgage holdings. how is so vital a resource for the world allowed to run with no one at the wheel? shouldn't our government monitor these events? they're into everything else including listening to private phone conversations in the name of a so called patriot act.

You should learn more about insurance my friend. It's a valuable tool to prevent major financial loss. It's all about covering risk. You have health insurance? You have auto insurance? You have home owners insurance?

Farmers buy insurance to protect against crop loss should they be hit by bad weather. Shipping companies buy insurance to protect against accidents much like we buy insurance to protect against major illnesses, auto accidents, or house fires.

[oddball]

You should learn more about insurance my friend. It's a valuable tool to prevent major financial loss. It's all about covering risk. You have health insurance? You have auto insurance? You have home owners insurance?

Farmers buy insurance to protect against crop loss should they be hit by bad weather. Shipping companies buy insurance to protect against accidents much like we buy insurance to protect against major illnesses, auto accidents, or house fires.

i have been paying for auto, health and homeowners insurance all my life. made two auto claims in 25 years. if i had back every penny that i was forced to purchase insurance with, i could retire. i try not to live in the 'what if'. do you sell insurance? you seem to be an advocate. i personally think insurance has ruined this country. it's made health care costs unaffordable for millions of people. i also don't feel insurance companies should dictate medical procedures, but they do every day when they refuse to pay for essential treatments or tests. and that's a good thing?

[nbr3bagshotrow]

i have been paying for auto, health and homeowners insurance all my life. made two auto claims in 25 years. if i had back every penny that i was forced to purchase insurance with, i could retire. i try not to live in the 'what if'. do you sell insurance? you seem to be an advocate.

No I don't sell insurance but I prefer to be prepared for the unforeseen. You don't have to pay for health insurance and you only have to have liability for auto insurance. As for your home, you really only have to have what is required by your mortgage company.

[oddball]

No I don't sell insurance but I prefer to be prepared for the unforeseen. You don't have to pay for health insurance and you only have to have liability for auto insurance. As for your home, you really only have to have what is required by your mortgage company.

you don't pay for health insurance and they'll leave you to die in the street. i own a new car and the bank requires me to purchase full coverage. same with my mortgage company. i see your points as being covered is better than not being covered, but i will always feel fundamentally that insurance is evil. jmho.

[TNovak]

Insurance is what is known as "shared risk". What that means is we know a certain % of people are going to get hail damage to their homes over a certain time over a certain area. Based on that data, we all pay a portion of what we know or reasonably suspect will be the overall cost. Whichever of us actually gets the hail damage gets paid to repair it.

Without "shared risk", everyone who had a house fire or cancer or any other insurable catastrophic event would be ruined.

As to investing and one wheel, I agree it is disastorous what AIG did putting too many eggs in one basket, but a lot of their problem stems from insuring durivatives. People have been warning about the housing bubble and the unsustainable growth rate of home values since at least 2005. The US Congress dropped the ball that's for sure.

[nbr3bagshotrow]

While AIG has more assets than Lehman, ($1 trillion vs. $600 billion), and provides insurance (http://www.thestreet.com/story/10437758/2/aig-bankruptcy-threat-forced-feds-hand.html#) to countless institutions and people around the world, perhaps the greatest risk of an AIG failure relates to the credit default swap (CDS) market, a multi-trillion dollar private market in which large institutions insure themselves against the risk of default by their debtors.
"An AIG bankruptcy would have enormous consequences, potentially bringing down other big financial institutions around the world through cascading defaults on credit default swaps and other credit derivatives (http://www.thestreet.com/story/10437758/2/aig-bankruptcy-threat-forced-feds-hand.html#)," says Timothy A. Canova, a professor of international economic law at the Chapman University School of Law. Though Lehman was one of the world's largest players in the credit default swaps market, its role was as largely that of a dealer, meaning its exposures involved more than two parties and were mostly hedged. By contrast, AIG's roughly $441 billion in CDS (http://www.thestreet.com/story/10437758/2/aig-bankruptcy-threat-forced-feds-hand.html#) involved only two parties -- AIG and the buyer -- and are largely not hedged, meaning AIG's trading partners may have no choice but to turn to the insurer to collect on their winning bets -- which AIG may not be able to pay.

And I was wrong in saying AIG had 62 trillion in CDS. Thought I heard/read that somewhere but it might have been the multi-trillion dollar private marker referred to above.

[nbr3bagshotrow]

you don't pay for health insurance and they'll leave you to die in the street. i own a new car and the bank requires me to purchase full coverage. same with my mortgage company. i see your points as being covered is better than not being covered, but i will always feel fundamentally that insurance is evil. jmho.

What's your feelings about the energy companies, utilities, and drug companies? What business are you in?

[The Watcher]

you don't pay for health insurance and they'll leave you to die in the street.

That's not true. Hospitals are required by law to treat everyone who needs medical care. Emergency rooms are inundated with transients and illegal aliens.

[nbr3bagshotrow]

That's not true. Hospitals are required by law to treat everyone who needs medical care. Emergency rooms are inundated with transients and illegal aliens.

yep, and the rest of us pay the cost through higher costs and health insurance.

[oddball]

and what's very funny tnovak, is the two claims i've made in the last 25 years have been for hail damage! :laugh:

[TNovak]

and what's very funny tnovak, is the two claims i've made in the last 25 years have been for hail damage! :laugh:

Oh wow, that was just a coincidence that I chose hail as a possible insurable peril. It works the same though with any insurance, it is shared risk. They try to make it fair by making those with increased risk pay more than those with less risk. For example, a driver with multiple accidents and a DUI should pay more than a driver with a safe and accident free history.

The only insurance that kind of hits a sticky wicket with regard to risk and fairness is health insurance. Many illnesses are hereditary and no fault of the individual and therefore "fair" doesn't really enter into it for premiums in those cases. My personal preference would be regional bid contracts for insurance companies to insure uninsured people, with the govt subsidizing premium costs for low income people. This system would keep insurance and the private sector market forces in place while providing insurance coverage for everybody.

[pablocruze]

Insurance is what is known as "shared risk". What that means is we know a certain % of people are going to get hail damage to their homes over a certain time over a certain area. Based on that data, we all pay a portion of what we know or reasonably suspect will be the overall cost. Whichever of us actually gets the hail damage gets paid to repair it.

Without "shared risk", everyone who had a house fire or cancer or any other insurable catastrophic event would be ruined.

As to investing and one wheel, I agree it is disastorous what AIG did putting too many eggs in one basket, but a lot of their problem stems from insuring durivatives. People have been warning about the housing bubble and the unsustainable growth rate of home values since at least 2005.

The US Congress dropped the ball that's for sure.


http://i36.tinypic.com/20johmc.jpg

Maybe that's one of the reasons their approval rating is so high...:confused2

[oddball]

What's your feelings about the energy companies, utilities, and drug companies? What business are you in?

i work for a not for profit dealing in health care services for those in need, mostly elderly. say what you will about the greedy pharmaceutical companies, but at least they have pap programs for those with no insurance. i feel that energy and utilities are localized monopolies. you don't have a choice when dealing with essentials like electric or water. and they have their hands in everyone's pockets as well.

our local county water company is shorthanded sometimes to where they can't send out a meter reader. so they charge you for zero gallons used that month, which comes with a minimum usage charge of around $20. the following month you receive a double bill for two months usage, yet no credit for the $20 charge the month before. basically they're financing you for one month for $20. my water bill is around $50 a month so you're looking at around 40% interest. i know loan sharks more forgiving.

[oddball]

That's not true. Hospitals are required by law to treat everyone who needs medical care. Emergency rooms are inundated with transients and illegal aliens.

in florida, only county hospitals must treat you. this place is chock full of private medical facilities that can turn you away if they like. but to avoid future legal ramifications, they accept life threatening injuries without insurance but attempt to collect those bills through rigorous collection efforts. and legally. i talk to elderly people about it all day and it's a sin the way our seniors are cast off in america.

[The Watcher]

Please see post #23.

[The Watcher]

.....

[oddball]

Liability under the Act

The Act applies to all hospitals which have emergency rooms and which participate in the Medicare program. Almost all hospitals, public and private, receive Medicare funds; therefore, almost all hospitals are covered by the federal Act.

my county has ONE hospital that receives medicare funding and THREE that don't. if you don't have insurance, you're transported to that one hospital UNLESS your injuries are life threatening. then you're stabilized at the nearest hospital and moved to that one hospital. i know the system, i work in the field. but thanks for going out of your way to try and prove me wrong rather than take my word for it. only the naive believe everything they read without applied experience in real life situations.

[The Watcher]

in florida, only county hospitals must treat you. this place is chock full of private medical facilities that can turn you away if they like. but to avoid future legal ramifications, they accept life threatening injuries without insurance but attempt to collect those bills through rigorous collection efforts. and legally. i talk to elderly people about it all day and it's a sin the way our seniors are cast off in america.

http://library.findlaw.com/2000/Aug/1/127864.html

Hospital Liability for Failing to Comply with the Federal Emergency Medical Treatment and Labor Act in Florida

Introduction

In response to a number of widely reported horror stories about emergency rooms turning away seriously ill or injured patients who had no insurance and no money to pay for treatment, in 1986 the United States Congress passed what became known as the Federal Emergency Medical Treatment and Labor Act (EMTALA or the "Act"). This Act is also known as the "anti-dumping" statute. Prior to the 1986 law, there was no requirement on the part of hospitals to treat everyone who came to the emergency room and, in many states; the hospital was not liable for damages caused by the hospital's refusal to treat a patient. A hospital could choose not to treat a patient who did not have insurance or enough money to pay for the required medical treatment. Sometimes patients would die or suffer serious injuries as the result of a transfer or delay in treatment. To prohibit such patient dumping, Congress enacted the antidumping provisions of the EMTALA.

Liability under the Act

The Act applies to all hospitals which have emergency rooms and which participate in the Medicare program. Almost all hospitals, public and private, receive Medicare funds; therefore, almost all hospitals are covered by the federal Act.

Conclusion

The antidumping provisions of EMTALA have added important elements to a patient's rights when he or she seeks treatment at a hospital emergency room. A hospital can no longer simply turn a patient away if he or she has no money or no insurance to cover the treatment in the emergency room. The hospital must at least give an appropriate screening and sufficient treatment to stabilize the patient before transferring or discharging. Persons who feel they have suffered injurious treatment at hospital emergency rooms because they did not receive the same type of screening or treatment that other similarly injured or ill patients would have received should seek the advice of an experienced attorney.

[oddball]

see post #22. here's another tidbit about death resulting from negligent care. in florida, ONLY a spouse or dependent child under age 18 can sue for malpractice. if you're unmarried and you die as a result of malpractice, your significant other can not sue. if your mother or father lost their spouse, and the other dies of blatant neligence and your over age 18, you can't sue. even if the doctor leaves a scalpel inside you and you die as a result. only your legal spouse or a child under 18 can sue if you die as a result of malpractice, with a cap of $200,000. if you die in a teaching hospital, that amount is reduced to $125,000. how do you like florida putting a value on human life?

[The Watcher]

Liability under the Act

The Act applies to all hospitals which have emergency rooms and which participate in the Medicare program. Almost all hospitals, public and private, receive Medicare funds; therefore, almost all hospitals are covered by the federal Act.

my county has ONE hospital that receives medicare funding and THREE that don't. if you don't have insurance, you're transported to that one hospital UNLESS your injuries are life threatening. then you're stabilized at the nearest hospital and moved to that one hospital. i know the system, i work in the field. but thanks for going out of your way to try and prove me wrong rather than take my word for it. only the naive believe everything they read without applied experience in real life situations.

I wasn’t trying to prove you wrong. My intention was to address your post with specifics because this subject comes up fairly regularly. Some people assume that our healthcare system is not treating people who can’t or won’t pay for insurance. That assumption is false and needs to be challenged.

I work in a hospital. I’m fully aware of the services that we provide.

[oddball]

I wasn’t trying to prove you wrong. My intention was to address your post with specifics because this subject comes up fairly regularly. Some people assume that our healthcare system is not treating people who can’t or won’t pay for insurance. That assumption is false and needs to be challenged.

I work in a hospital. I’m fully aware of the services that we provide.

as i'm not attacking you personally, i've seen some of the worst treatment and negligence on several occasions in florida hospitals. patients that soiled themselves left unattended for hours. patients vomiting in hallways because an exam room 'wasn't ready' to receive them while nurses were BSing about their tv shows and sipping coffee. i myself with GREAT health insurance, sat in the ER for over four hours with a dislocated finger. the damage was so severe that my finger is now permanently disfigured from the delay of resetting it.

i do hope to god that you take your position seriously and that you do everything you can to uphold your responsibilities as a health care worker to those requiring your attention and assistance. i have witnessed on too many occasions, patients being left to fate.

btw, although the law is clearly stated, many hospitals have teams of attorneys whose sole purpose is to work around the liabilities of the law, while their legislators work hard in Tallahassee to change the laws to the hospital's benefit. hence the malpractice cap and provisions that need to be met to qualify for a lawsuit, even when the doctor or nurse is blatantly at fault.

but you do have a difficult job and i praise you for your efforts.

just to add, i've successfully derailed my own thread! :laugh: do you feel the induction of insurance companies dictating treatments and tests have ruined the health care system in america? they certainly have driven the costs through the roof.

[oddball]

getting this thread back on topic. the new figures look like HUNDREDS of billions will be spent. :thumbsdow

note to our gov... printing more money doesn't give it value. we are deep in it now!

http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/080919/financial_meltdown.html

[yongkykun]

look up "secret rulers of the world" in youtube along with "esoteric agenda." These videos will really put you up to date with what is REALLY going on in the world today and in the near future.

Keep an open mind when you watch them.

[Ink]

getting this thread back on topic. the new figures look like HUNDREDS of billions will be spent. :thumbsdow

note to our gov... printing more money doesn't give it value. we are deep in it now!

http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/080919/financial_meltdown.html

we' ve been knee deep in it for awhile now

[oddball]

just a little over three months before relinquishing power, the current administration announces an unprecedented 85 billion dollar bailout of aig. now the proposed mortgage bailout could cost american taxpayers over 700 billion dollars, increasing our deficit that was once a surplus in 2000, to 11.3 trillion dollars in debt.

this is the icing on the financial ruin of america's cake. still think the government shouldn't regulate businesses like oil, insurance, mortgage and financial institutions? when misappropriation forces our government to use taxpayer dollars to bail out these companies that are so volatile to our world economy, why hasn't our system of checks and balances been effective to monitor the way these companies do business?

again what i'm seeing is a select few pockets benefiting from these crisis' while the financial stability of our nation and the world for future generations to come is threatened.

[Babytoxie]

...
this is the icing on the financial ruin of america's cake. still think the government shouldn't regulate businesses like oil, insurance, mortgage and financial institutions? when misappropriation forces our government to use taxpayer dollars to bail out these companies that are so volatile to our world economy, why hasn't our system of checks and balances been effective to monitor the way these companies do business?
...

Indeed. Gotta love that so-called free market economy.

[Logan]

http://video.google.nl/videoplay?docid=-515319560256183936&ei=vgzWSPibB4_EiAKnxKDBAg&q=%22money+masters%22+&hl=nl