Boy, 11, kills pregnant stepmom with his own gun

[Kingofthehill78]

Boy, 11, kills pregnant stepmom with his own gun

Island Today Editor
By StephanieIngersoll - February 22, 2009 - 2:05pm
How, this just seems to raise so many issues. Even if you beleive in teaching children to shoot, should you give them their own special gun? Can children this young be expected to handle that responsiblity? Should they be tried as an adult for murder? Is there something about our society that might make kids believe people are disposable? Share your thoughts, plase.

WAMPUM, Pa. (AP) — Fifth-grader Jordan Brown boarded the bus and headed to school like he did most other mornings in this rural western Pennsylvania community.

But before he left home on Friday, authorities say, the 11-year-old boy had shot his father's pregnant fiancee in the back of the head as she lay in bed. He then put his youth model 20-gauge shotgun back in his room before going out to catch his bus, police say.

Brown was charged Saturday as an adult in the death of 26-year-old Kenzie Marie Houk, who was eight months pregnant, Lawrence County District Attorney John Bongivengo said. Houk's fetus died within minutes due to a lack of oxygen, Lawrence County Coroner Russell Noga said.

Houk's family and friends, who gathered at her parents' house Saturday night, told The Associated Press that there had been past problems with the boy.

"He actually told my son that he wanted to do that to her," said Houk's brother-in-law, Jason Kraner. "There was an issue with jealousy."

Pennsylvania State Police found Houk's body in the rented farmhouse after her 4-year-old daughter told tree cutters on the property she thought her mother was dead, Bongivengo said.

The boy told police there was a black truck on the property that morning — possibly the man who feeds the cows — sending investigators to follow a false lead for about five hours, Bongivengo said. Inconsistencies in Brown's description of the truck led police to re-interview Houk's 7-year-old daughter, who implicated the boy in the killing, Bongivengo said. State troopers went to get the boy at school.

"She didn't actually eyewitness the shooting. She saw him with what she believed to be a shotgun and heard a loud bang," Bongivengo said. The gun was found in a "location we believe to be in the defendant's bedroom."

Brown was arraigned and was being held in the Lawrence County Jail, with a preliminary hearing scheduled for Thursday.

"An 11-year-old kid — what would give him the motive to shoot someone?" said Houk's father, Jack Houk. "Maybe he was just jealous of my daughter and the baby and thought he would be overpowered."

Defense attorney Dennis Elisco said he plans to ask Monday for the boy to be released on bail and for the case to moved to juvenile court. Elisco and police said they had no clear motive for the shooting.

Elisco said he is waiting to see physical evidence that ties his young client to the killing.

"I don't think he knows what's going on," he said. "I walked out of there thinking he was innocent. I believe Jordan did not do this."

The boy's father, Christopher Brown, is "a mess" and had no indication his son had a problem with Houk, Elisco said.

"He's in a state of actual shock and disbelief," he said.

The shotgun used is designed for children and has a shorter arm and such weapons do not have to be registered, Bongivengo said. Jack Houk, 57, said the boy and his father used to practice shooting behind their farmhouse, and the two enjoyed going hunting together.

Wampum is about 45 miles northwest of Pittsburgh

[patrickwm68]

The kid does look a little evil.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00491/jordan_491281a.jpg

[ratchet]

The kid does look a little evil.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00491/jordan_491281a.jpg

Yikes - that is sad and scary...

[rilynil]

I'm sorry, but what kind of hunting would an 11-year-old boy need his own shotgun for?

[Kingofthehill78]

http://lcupteam.files.wordpress.com/2007/08/omen.jpg

looks like a dead match....:peoples:

[TNovak]

I'm sorry, but what kind of hunting would an 11-year-old boy need his own shotgun for?

whether it was his or someone elses it would shoot the same. To answer your question, a 20 gauge is generally a bird gun, quail, pheasants, doves and the like (you can shoot ducks and geese with it, but they usually fly to high so a 12 guage is a better choice).

I got my first gun when I was 7, a .22 rim fire lever action Ruger. Used it to shoot gophers and rats. :)

[Tetragrammaton]

I'm all for teaching a kid to shoot, but there's no way the firearm is going to accessible to him and kept at the family home.

IMO, the father needs to be charged and do some time for criminal negligence.

[MrYac]

I'm all for teaching a kid to shoot, but there's no way the firearm is going to accessible to him and kept at the family home.

forget the home, kept in his room:confused:

[patrickwm68]

It's obvious the father was totally clueless as to what his son was feeling. There's no way a sensible person would allow a child with jealousy and anger issues to have access to a loaded gun.

I personally don't have a problem with guns but I choose not to have them in my house just for the simple fact that accidents do happen.

[Tetragrammaton]

That where I stand on the issue as well.

There are few people I've met who are more pro-gun ownership than me, but it has to be secure and disciplined.

[heykool69]

I always enforce the "no gun" rule with my sons. Not even toy guns that goes onto his Transformer figures. And second, i always kept my firearm & loaded cartridge in separate rooms.

[DeKind]

A tad interested in how this plays out. They're going to request that he be tried as an adult due to the brutality of the crime. The max sentance otherwise would be less than 10 years and zero prison time.

They made the point that had it been an 18 year old they'd be going for the death penalty.

Personally i hope they stick him in Jail for the rest of his life. Age does not excuse fetching your shotgun, loading it, then executing a pregnant woman, catching the bus to school, then lying about what happened. The biggest issue and scariest part here is the completely lack of remorse. Plainly obvious hes very disturbed and has no place in society.

[rilynil]

whether it was his or someone elses it would shoot the same. To answer your question, a 20 gauge is generally a bird gun, quail, pheasants, doves and the like (you can shoot ducks and geese with it, but they usually fly to high so a 12 guage is a better choice).

I got my first gun when I was 7, a .22 rim fire lever action Ruger. Used it to shoot gophers and rats. :)
As you can tell, I'm no hunter. But I think this story makes a pretty good case for kids not having anytime access to guns. Kids don't have the proper judgement to handle them whenever they want. Case in point, this 11-year-old kid with the 20-gauge shotgun. I agree with Tet: the father is partly to blame for this. No one could predict the kid going so wacko, but if a gun was not so accessible, the mother would have had a much better chance to still be alive.

[bat_collector]

this kid probably needs to be locked up in some way for a long time, if not for good

[lord odin]

At 11 he knows it's wrong to kill and he knows how to use a gun i'm sure they will say something mental is wrong with him and my taxes will go to yet another kid I didn't lay down and have.:thumbsdow

[armitage]

I blame it on video games, violent movies, internet, music that incites violence, lack of parental control/supervision.
Movies and video games desensitize children, scientifically speaking, children who are exposed to violence in media, TV, Video Games, have a less developed frontal lobe, which controls ability to distinguish right from wrong,along with higher functioning and self control.
Young children who see violence use it as a coping mechanism for stress, and think it is normal to do so.


In short, children who are frequent viewers of media violence learn that aggression is a successful and acceptable way to achieve goals and solve problems; they are less likely to benefit from creative, imaginative play as the natural means to express feelings, overcome anger, and gain self-control.-National Association for the Education of Young Children

[lord odin]

I blame it on video games, violent movies, internet, music that incites violence, lack of parental control/supervision.
Movies and video games desensitize children, scientifically speaking, children who are exposed to violence in media, TV, Video Games, have a less developed frontal lobe, which controls ability to distinguish right from wrong,along with higher functioning and self control.
Young children who see violence use it as a coping mechanism for stress, and think it is normal to do so.

-National Association for the Education of Young Children
You know something I agree because when I played GTA:Vice City I just wanted to kill anybody around me even if the cops were right there.
I would pick up a hooker and drive somewhere on the grass and after she got out i'd run her ass over and take my money back.
I loved using the sniper rifle and the code for the tank I was on a rampage.:confused2

[armitage]

You know something I agree because when I played GTA:Vice City I just wanted to kill anybody around me even if the cops were right there.
I would pick up a hooker and drive somewhere on the grass and after she got out i'd run her ass over and take my money back.
I loved using the sniper rifle and the code for the tank I was on a rampage.:confused2

I wonder if you're on an FBI watch list?:confused:

[TNovak]

I would pick up a hooker and drive somewhere on the grass and after she got out i'd run her ass over and take my money back.


Well that just goes without saying........right? :confused2

[lord odin]

I wonder if you're on an FBI watch list?:confused:
I know a couple of Spetsnaz that want me dead.:confused2

[lord odin]

Well that just goes without saying........right? :confused2
Don't knock it til you try it.:confused2

[ratchet]

I blame it on video games, violent movies, internet, music that incites violence, lack of parental control/supervision.
Movies and video games desensitize children, scientifically speaking, children who are exposed to violence in media, TV, Video Games, have a less developed frontal lobe, which controls ability to distinguish right from wrong,along with higher functioning and self control.
Young children who see violence use it as a coping mechanism for stress, and think it is normal to do so.

-National Association for the Education of Young Children

Really? It's the T.V.'s fault? Really?

[armitage]

Really? It's the T.V.'s fault? Really?

Really.
Turn off the T.V.

[Darth Pain]

IMHO...Fry the boy and lock up his father.
What will probably happen is....the boy will be let go and in a few years he'll bring a gun to school. Where he'll kill again.

I know a couple of Spetsnaz that want me dead.:confused2

They always tryin to kill me too..lol

[ratchet]

Really.
Turn off the T.V.

So watching cash cab will eventually force me to drive a cab around and ask people questions??

[Kingofthehill78]

I blame it on video games, violent movies, internet, music that incites violence, lack of parental control/supervision.
Movies and video games desensitize children, scientifically speaking, children who are exposed to violence in media, TV, Video Games, have a less developed frontal lobe, which controls ability to distinguish right from wrong,along with higher functioning and self control.
Young children who see violence use it as a coping mechanism for stress, and think it is normal to do so.

-National Association for the Education of Young Children

Yeah yeah and before T.v. it was comic books and before comic books it was those bicycles with the big front wheel :laugh: and before that it was salem witches :laugh: ...America loves the blame game... It's easier for you to feel comfortable thinking oh he did this because of that instead of the thought that evil really does exist out there... I'm sorry but there is some truly evil people out there....Its not because their mommy didn't love them and its not because they play mortal kombat. There is no reason sometimes....and thats too scary for anyone to admit to themselves.

[HalJordanFan]

Really.
Turn off the T.V.



LOL! Your nuts!! ;)

[HalJordanFan]

I can see the Lifetime movie now.....The TV made me do it!!!!:laugh:

[riderV3]

Yeah yeah and before T.v. it was comic books and before comic books it was those bicycles with the big front wheel :laugh: and before that it was salem witches :laugh: ...America loves the blame game... It's easier for you to feel comfortable thinking oh he did this because of that instead of the thought that evil really does exist out there... I'm sorry but there is some truly evil people out there....Its not because their mommy didn't love them and its not because they play mortal kombat. There is no reason sometimes....and thats too scary for anyone to admit to themselves.

The fact is the kids nowadays are over-stimulated, they lose the sense of reality, grow numb and stop caring.

When's the last time you see a kid who appreciates what naturre has to offer...not anymore.

[MrYac]

eh, nature sucks. but for every freak who shoots his step mom theres a few million who don't who watch just as much TV and play just as many video games

[riderV3]

eh, nature sucks.

eh.....:stick:

[MrYac]

i think Charles Montgomery Burns said it best
"Oooh, so Mother Nature needs a favor?! Well maybe she should have thought of that when she was besetting us with droughts and floods and poison monkeys! Nature started the fight for survival, and now she wants to quit because she’s losing. Well I say, hard cheese."

[Kingofthehill78]

i think Charles Montgomery Burns said it best
"Oooh, so Mother Nature needs a favor?! Well maybe she should have thought of that when she was besetting us with droughts and floods and poison monkeys! Nature started the fight for survival, and now she wants to quit because she’s losing. Well I say, hard cheese."

:laugh:

[DeKind]

The fact is the kids nowadays are over-stimulated, they lose the sense of reality, grow numb and stop caring.

When's the last time you see a kid who appreciates what naturre has to offer...not anymore.

being desensitized and being psychotic are two completely different things. Lots of men and woman live in countries or go off to war where horrors beyond the imagination are an every day occurance. They dont turn into mindless nutcases themselves looking to disembowel everyone they come across.

[armitage]

So watching cash cab will eventually force me to drive a cab around and ask people questions??

Of course.:rolleyes2
Is this all your capable of contributing?
This might entertain the mouth breathers but I don't find it slightly amusing.
Your showing a level of immaturity that only propels my argument.

Yeah yeah and before T.v. it was comic books and before comic books it was those bicycles with the big front wheel and before that it was salem witches :laugh: ...America loves the blame game... It's easier for you to feel comfortable thinking oh he did this because of that instead of the thought that evil really does exist out there... I'm sorry but there is some truly evil people out there....Its not because their mommy didn't love them and its not because they play mortal kombat.

I can't even begin to dignify this.
Read something for a change, you might find you'll actually learn something.
In any case you perpetuate ignorance by disregarding the impact these types of games and movies have on children. Obviously you're not educated on early childhood psychology. The root of the problem needs to be addressed, you are merely looking at the symptoms. It's probably alot easier for you because it involves less work.

LOL! Your nuts!!

Obviously.:rolleyes2
I mean scientific proof of the damaging effects of mind numbing violence to children can't possibly be
accepted in this case. Maybe you'd prefer me to resort to blaming aerosols,fluoride in our drinking water, and radio frequencies for
the degradation of childrens minds.
What is wrong with you people?:confused:

[MrYac]

What is wrong with you people?:confused:

too much tv and video games obviously;) but honestly this is unquestionably a terrible incident, but it's more an anomoly then an epidemic, granted there seems to be more of these incidents lately but i still believe that if a person is capable of something like this it is in them and not caused by watching too much tv or listening to the wrong kind of music, countless billions of people watch and listen to these things daily and only the smallest fraction of them go out and shoot their step mothers

[armitage]

i still believe that if a person is capable of something like this it is in them and not caused by watching too much tv or listening to the wrong kind of music, countless billions of people watch and listen to these things daily and only the smallest fraction of them go out and shoot their step mothers

Again.
Do you honestly believe that playing a violent video game or watching violent movies at a developed age
is the same as a child watching violent movies and playing violent video games?
If you really think that is true, I'm sorry I've wasted my time. And any further chance to employ the truth here would be futile.
I'm not blaming it all on theses things but believe me or not they are counter effective to children.
I'm sure some people are inherently evil.

[Kingofthehill78]

Of course.:rolleyes2
Is this all your capable of contributing?
This might entertain the mouth breathers but I don't find it slightly amusing.
Your showing a level of immaturity that only propels my argument.



I can't even begin to dignify this.
Read something for a change, you might find you'll actually learn something.
In any case you perpetuate ignorance by disregarding the impact these types of games and movies have on children. Obviously you're not educated on early childhood psychology. The root of the problem needs to be addressed, you are merely looking at the symptoms. It's probably alot easier for you because it involves less work.



Obviously.:rolleyes2
I mean scientific proof of the damaging effects of mind numbing violence to children can't possibly be
accepted in this case. Maybe you'd prefer me to resort to blaming aerosols, and radio frequencies for
the degradation of childrens minds.
What is wrong with you people?:confused:

The Big Lie

The widely held belief that television fantasy violence stimulates aggression in the real world and should be censured is what propaganda experts might call "a big lie" -- a grotesque fabrication to which all unreflectingly subscribe. What makes this particular big lie different from the propagandists’ is that it is not bestowed on an acquiescent population by some cabal; rather, this is one that we all repeatedly tell one another, duping ourselves as we dupe others. We do this for reasons of convenience: By repeating this uncontroverted big lie with ever-increasing volume, we can easily vent some of our own hostilities regarding other, truly confounding social conflicts.

While censure is generally directed by the stronger party toward the weaker, in some instances it flows in the opposite direction. Within the gender wars, and in the invectives of the religious right, condemnations are directed by weaker parties toward stronger targets. But whether the chastising energy flows from the stronger toward the weaker or from the weaker toward the stronger has nothing to do with the actualities of television violence.

Whatever its immediate source, the energy that breathes life into the whipping boy of television violence has its ultimate origins in fear -- fear of disorder that, in the extreme, could overturn society. As Charles Acland has written, "A society is always concerned with normalization, with the organization of its order, to assure the continuation of its structures and distribution of power." Although social order is a perpetual preoccupation, at this point in history it would seem to be an obsessive one; witness the outsized emphasis on the containment of crime at a time when crime is on the decline and the reckless hysteria of the War on Drugs. Sociologist Graham Murdock refers to the "fear about the precarious balance between anarchy and order in the modern age." Exactly why this fearful fixation on social order should be occurring now is open to question. Its existence, however, should not be doubted. Indeed, the need to strengthen social controls has a correlate in Americans’ increasing imposition of self-controls: Per capita alcohol consumption and cigarette smoking have been on the decline and health club memberships on the rise for most of the past 30 years.

Television is new enough that it is not embraced without reservations, and it has not yet accumulated the social equity that would allow it to be shielded by nostalgia. In addition to its relative novelty, it is enormous, filling up the day (television viewing trails only work and sleep in terms of expended time), and can be menacing on this count. Because everyone has access to television, its use cannot be regulated, and thus for those who want to control it, the medium is believed to be out of control and threatening. The rise of television, observes media scholar Richard Sparks, "has been taken to signify the drift of history beyond willed control or direction. The censure of television bears witness to the fear of the future."

General apprehension about the course of history is in several senses the opposite of video violence -- the passivity of fear vs. the frenzy of aggression, the amorphous vs. the detailed, and the actual vs. the symbolic. The two find each other as if magnetized, whereupon the flaying of the whipping boy begins.

Hows that for a little reading? :wink2:
(the whole article http://www.cyc-net.org/today2001/today010228.html )

[Kingofthehill78]

Again.
Do you honestly believe that playing a violent video game or watching violent movies at a developed age
is the same as a child watching violent movies and playing violent video games?
If you really think that is true, I'm sorry I've wasted my time. And any further chance to employ the truth here would be futile.
I'm not blaming it all on theses things but believe me or not they are counter effective to children.
I'm sure some people are inherently evil.

Hmmm I remember someone saying that a little awile ago....oh yeah that was me...:rolleyes2
Yeah yeah and before T.v. it was comic books and before comic books it was those bicycles with the big front wheel :laugh: and before that it was salem witches :laugh: ...America loves the blame game... It's easier for you to feel comfortable thinking oh he did this because of that instead of the thought that evil really does exist out there... I'm sorry but there is some truly evil people out there....Its not because their mommy didn't love them and its not because they play mortal kombat. There is no reason sometimes....and thats too scary for anyone to admit to themselves.

[armitage]

Hows that for a little reading? :wink2:
(the whole article http://www.cyc-net.org/today2001/today010228.html )

Let me ask you this.
What does that mean to you?
You can quote Tolstoy if you want, but that means nothing if you took nothing away from that which you
quoted.
Personally I think you feel I'm trying to censure games and movies and music, and that is not the case.
My entire point, which you have not acknowledged is that some of these things are not appropriate for children and do inflict mental harm unto them.
As for you and I we are able to realize fantasy from reality...or hopefully we can to the best of our ability.
Children do not process this information like we do.
Can you at least confirm you would not take your 11 year old child to see a movie like House of 1000 Corpses? Or do you find that acceptable?

[armitage]

Hmmm I remember someone saying that a little awile ago....oh yeah that was me...:rolleyes2

Kudos to youdos!:p
I doubt the "inherently evil" card works 100% of the time.

[MrYac]

Again.
Do you honestly believe that playing a violent video game or watching violent movies at a developed age
is the same as a child watching violent movies and playing violent video games?
If you really think that is true, I'm sorry I've wasted my time. And any further chance to employ the truth here would be futile.
I'm not blaming it all on theses things but believe me or not they are counter effective to children.
I'm sure some people are inherently evil.

i and countless others have grown up playing the violent games and watching the violent movies and have yet to turn into murderers, so yes i stand by my claim that the type of person who will get set on a killing spree because his dad let him watch Die Hard when he was 3 is the type of person who would have snapped any way

[armitage]

i and countless others have grown up playing the violent games and watching the violent movies and have yet to turn into murderers, so yes i stand by my claim that the type of person who will get set on a killing spree because his dad let him watch Die Hard when he was 3 is the type of person who would have snapped any way

I'm sure countless people have driven a car while intoxicated yet never killed someone.
Also I never said watching movies or playing violent games when you're a child will turn you into a killer.
I'm saying that it fuels the tendencies of that sort of behavior. It also affected you and countless others in ways you or they might not consciously understand.
If you can tell me honestly that you don't see people
have been gradually getting worse, and you feel it has nothing to do with this then I can accept that.
And I will have to respectfully disagree with you and leave it at that.

[Kingofthehill78]

Let me ask you this.
What does that mean to you?
You can quote Tolstoy if you want, but that means nothing if you took nothing away from that which you
quoted.
Personally I think you feel I'm trying to censure games and movies and music, and that is not the case.
My entire point, which you have not acknowledged is that some of these things are not appropriate for children and do inflict mental harm unto them.
As for you and I we are able to realize fantasy from reality...or hopefully we can to the best of our ability.
Children do not process this information like we do.
Can you at least confirm you would not take your 11 year old child to see a movie like House of 1000 Corpses? Or do you find that acceptable?

Um did you forget your post? let me bring it up...

I blame it on video games, violent movies, internet, music that incites violence, lack of parental control/supervision.
Movies and video games desensitize children, scientifically speaking, children who are exposed to violence in media, TV, Video Games, have a less developed frontal lobe, which controls ability to distinguish right from wrong,along with higher functioning and self control.
Young children who see violence use it as a coping mechanism for stress, and think it is normal to do so.

-National Association for the Education of Young Children

You said that you blame violent movies, tv, music that incites violence games etc. No I wouldn't take my 11 year old to house of a 1000 corpses and not because I fear my kid will turn into a killer....mainly because house of a 1000 corpses is not that great a movie...the devil's rejects was way better...Bad parenting is more of a reason on why kids shoot up school then blaming it on video games or tv etc. But also keep in mind its not just bad parenting like I said and other people have said there is some people out there that aren't all there in the head and no matter how much great parenting or censorship of tv, video games is not going to change that.

[armitage]

You said that you blame violent movies, tv, music that incites violence games etc. .

You did read my post?
I also said negligent parenting and lack of supervision as well on parents part is also to blame.
I wonder if you're just feeling argumentative?
Oh well.
Devils Rejects was nowhere near as good as 1000 Corpses.:tounge:

[Kingofthehill78]

You did read my post?
I also said negligent parenting and lack of supervision as well on parents part is also to blame.
I wonder if you're just feeling argumentative?
Oh well.
Devils Rejects was nowhere near as good as 1000 Corpses.:tounge:

house of a 1000 corpses was just a rip off of texas chainsaw massacre....:p

[armitage]

house of a 1000 corpses was just a rip off of texas chainsaw massacre....:p

LOL!
:laugh:

[lord odin]

house of a 1000 corpses was just a rip off of texas chainsaw massacre....:p
I liked that movie but I liked the devil's rejects better.

[armitage]

I liked that movie but I liked the devil's rejects better.

WHAT?! Not you too?:inquisiti
Devil's Rejects was not a bad movie but Corpses was so much more fun.
We're derailing the hell out of this thread.
For that I apologize.

[JM28Cardiff]

Does the American Legal system allow you to lock the kid up till hes 18, then kill him?

The trouble with notorious child killers (or even notorious adult criminals) is that once they have done the time, they need to be set up with new identities etc, it all costs money.

[ratchet]

Devil's Rejects all the way

And it has 100% to do with parents neglect and 0% to do with violent t.v. and video games. Anyone who thinks otherwise is severely deluded...

[rilynil]

Actually, I can easily see where a problem child who is neglected by his parents and spends all his time with ultra-violent video games and movies could do this. It's been proven time and again that environment has a huge impact on human behavior. Ultra-violent video games may not be the cause of this behavior but I have no doubt that it can play a big factor in leading to this type of behavior.

How can anyone argue that kids who are exposed to extreme violence in their formulative years aren't effected by it?

[biglebowski9999]

Actually, I can easily see where a problem child who is neglected by his parents and spends all his time with ultra-violent video games and movies could do this. It's been proven time and again that environment has a huge impact on human behavior. Ultra-violent video games may not be the cause of this behavior but I have no doubt that it can play a big factor in leading to this type of behavior.

How can anyone argue that kids who are exposed to extreme violence in their formulative years aren't effected by it?


You can't argue that it doesn't have *some* effect. But the problem is, it's just one of a number of factors. Plus, for every one kid that does something like this, there are thousands that are exposed to all the same things and show no negative effects. Video games, movies and TV are just an easy scapegoat for people because they don't want to acknowledge the fact that many parents are doing a sh!tty job of raising their kids and there is a small % of kids that are just messed up at birth and will end up doing something like this no matter what outside factors influence them. You guys can't honestly believe that stuff like this didn't go on in the days before TV, movies and games. It did. But now you hear about it instantly thanks to the internet and there is plenty of stuff to blame it on rather than the true culprits.

[lord odin]

People have been killing family members since people have had families some with no rhyme or reason.
Some people are just wired different than others and what scares some people is they can't tell who's who.

[lord odin]

You can't argue that it doesn't have *some* effect. But the problem is, it's just one of a number of factors. Plus, for every one kid that does something like this, there are thousands that are exposed to all the same things and show no negative effects. Video games, movies and TV are just an easy scapegoat for people because they don't want to acknowledge the fact that many parents are doing a sh!tty job of raising their kids and there is a small % of kids that are just messed up at birth and will end up doing something like this no matter what outside factors influence them. You guys can't honestly believe that stuff like this didn't go on in the days before TV, movies and games. It did. But now you hear about it instantly thanks to the internet and there is plenty of stuff to blame it on rather than the true culprits.
The news loves these type of stories it sells and it makes them money.Give it another week or two and it will be old news replaced by the next tragedy.

[Sinatra VonDoom]

People have been killing family members since people have had families some with no rhyme or reason.
Some people are just wired different than others and what scares some people is they can't tell who's who.

I agree 100%. Mental illness is very hard to understand, even when you are looking right at it. It is much easier to point a finger at something else. I think it helps us feel that we have more control over this type of horror than we really do.

[rilynil]

You can't argue that it doesn't have *some* effect. But the problem is, it's just one of a number of factors. Plus, for every one kid that does something like this, there are thousands that are exposed to all the same things and show no negative effects. Video games, movies and TV are just an easy scapegoat for people because they don't want to acknowledge the fact that many parents are doing a sh!tty job of raising their kids and there is a small % of kids that are just messed up at birth and will end up doing something like this no matter what outside factors influence them. You guys can't honestly believe that stuff like this didn't go on in the days before TV, movies and games. It did. But now you hear about it instantly thanks to the internet and there is plenty of stuff to blame it on rather than the true culprits.

Let me ask you this: Is there more violence on TV and in video games today? There no doubt there is. Is there more instances of youth violence today? Studies show there is. That doesn't mean you can lay all the school shootings and such at the feet of TV and video game violence, but you CAN say today's kids are growing up exposed to more violence than previous generations, and at a younger age.

People have said these tragedies are not the fault of video violence, but the fault of the parents. Well, many people would also agree that part of a parent's responsibility is to keep their kids from watching too much violent TV and playing violent videogames. Many studies have shown that even normal kids with no mental issues are more violent after being exposed to violence.

Is anyone really going to try to make the argument that ultraviolent movies and video games are GOOD for kids during their formulative years?

[lord odin]

Let me ask you this: Is there more violence on TV and in video games today? There no doubt there is. Is there more instances of youth violence today? Studies show there is. That doesn't mean you can lay all the school shootings and such at the feet of TV and video game violence, but you CAN say today's kids are growing up exposed to more violence than previous generations, and at a younger age.

People have said these tragedies are not the fault of video violence, but the fault of the parents. Well, many people would also agree that part of a parent's responsibility is to keep their kids from watching too much violent TV and playing violent videogames. Many studies have shown that even normal kids with no mental issues are more violent after being exposed to violence.

Is anyone really going to try to make the argument that ultraviolent movies and video games are GOOD for kids during their formulative years?
I turned out fine.:confused2

[ratchet]

Okay - so if I said people nowadays are funnier because they watch a lot of funny television - would that hold any water?

[lord odin]

Okay - so if I said people nowadays are funnier because they watch a lot of funny television - would that hold any water?
Now that's just silly everyone knows people are funnier because of the internet. lol lol lol lol:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

[rilynil]

Okay - so if I said people nowadays are funnier because they watch a lot of funny television - would that hold any water?

You don't believe that violence breeds violence? I'm not making this stuff up. A person's environment has definite impacts on that person, especially during his or her formulative years. This isn't fiction.

[ratchet]

You don't believe that violence breeds violence? I'm not making this stuff up. A person's environment has definite impacts on that person, especially during his or her formulative years. This isn't fiction.

I don't believe make believe violence breeds violence - alone. Not at all. Does violence breed violence? Yes. Does fake violence on a T.V. Screen breed violence. Nope, I don't believe it does - if you can show a study that proves it does, please do! I'll show you studies that dispute those findings...

[rilynil]

I don't believe make believe violence breeds violence - alone. Not at all. Does violence breed violence? Yes. Does fake violence on a T.V. Screen breed violence. Nope, I don't believe it does - if you can show a study that proves it does, please do! I'll show you studies that dispute those findings...

Then why do most parents try to shield their children from watching slasher movies, bad language, porn and such? Why? If television and movie violence have no impact, why has it always been the perceived to be common sense to shield children from it?

Negative exposure can encourage negative behavior. Duh.

[ratchet]

Then why do most parents try to shield their children from watching slasher movies, bad language, porn and such? Why? If television and movie violence have no impact, why has it always been the perceived to be common sense to shield children from it?

Negative exposure can encourage negative behavior. Duh.

Again - show me studies. I was watching violent or "scary movies" since I was 9 - it didn't have a negative effect on me - as well as millions of other kids

And do want to know the real reason parents shield their kids from those movies? Because they don't want to have to deal with the questions the child would ask afterward.

Duh? Really? Throwing that at the end?

[rilynil]

Again - show me studies. I was watching violent or "scary movies" since I was 9 - it didn't have a negative effect on me - as well as millions of other kids

And do want to know the real reason parents shield their kids from those movies? Because they don't want to have to deal with the questions the child would ask afterward.

Duh? Really? Throwing that at the end?

Yeah, because I can't believe that anyone would dispute that negative exposure can have negative effects on children. Note that I used the word "can" not "does" or "will." Kids are HIGHLY susceptible to things -- both positive and negative -- when they are young. Violent movies don't produce violent children 100 percent of the time. Of course, practically nothing short of gravity has a 100 percent prediction rate. BUT if you read the histories of things like Columbine, the Arkansas school shootings and any other number of tragedies, there are quite a few common factors. Just because you turned out all right doesn't mean that all 8 and 9 years are fine watching "House of 1,000 Corpses" and "The Devil's Rejects." Some parents are letting their kids watch this stuff when they are 5. I say that does a child no good whatsoever. And if it does no good, then why do it?

[rilynil]

Here's a link:
http://ceep.crc.uiuc.edu/eecearchive/digests/1997/aidman97.html

Here's a highlight:

"Social science research conducted over the past 40 years supports the conclusion that viewing violent television programming has negative consequences for children, and the research suggests three areas in which watching violent television programs can impact young viewers:

1. Media violence can encourage children to learn aggressive behavior and attitudes.
2. Media violence can cultivate fearful or pessimistic attitudes in children about the non-television world.
3. Media violence can desensitize children to real-world and fantasy violence.

According to Eron (1992), "(t)here can no longer be any doubt that heavy exposure to televised violence is one of the causes of aggressive behavior, crime, and violence in society. The evidence comes from both the laboratory and real-life studies. Television violence affects youngsters of all ages, of both genders, at all socio-economic levels and all levels of intelligence. The effect is not limited to children who are already disposed to being aggressive and is not restricted to this country" (p. 1)."

Another link:
http://www.media-awareness.ca/english/resources/research_documents/reports/violence/nat_tv_violence.cfm

An excerpt:
"The study found that most violence is glamorized and sanitized. Across the three years of the study, nearly 40% of the violent incidents on television are initiated by "good" characters who are likely to be perceived as attractive role models. The long-term negative consequences of violence are portrayed in only 15% of programs, when averaged over the three years. "These patterns teach children that violence is desirable, necessary, and painless," said Dr. Dale Kunkel, associate professor of communication at UCSB, and a senior researcher for the study."

[rilynil]

Here's a couple more articles:
http://archives.cnn.com/2002/HEALTH/parenting/03/28/kids.tv.violence/index.html
http://www.apa.org/releases/media_violence.html

I'm not saying that every kid who watches highly violent stuff will turn out to be an ax murderer. But there are enough studies out there to suggest that kids shouldn't be exposed to highly violent programming and games because it increases their chances of negative behavior later in life.

I don't know what the deal is with this shotgun-toting 11-year-old, but I can guarantee you that bad parenting played a factor.

[rilynil]

Here's an article on video games and children:

http://www.apa.org/science/psa/sb-anderson.html

Excerpt:
"Myths and Facts
Myth 1. Violent video game research has yielded very mixed results.
Facts: Some studies have yielded nonsignificant video game effects, just as some smoking studies failed to find a significant link to lung cancer. But when one combines all relevant empirical studies using meta-analytic techniques, five separate effects emerge with considerable consistency. Violent video games are significantly associated with: increased aggressive behavior, thoughts, and affect; increased physiological arousal; and decreased prosocial (helping) behavior. Average effect sizes for experimental studies (which help establish causality) and correlational studies (which allow examination of serious violent behavior) appear comparable (Anderson & Bushman, 2001)."

Another excerpt:
"Myth 6. There are no studies linking violent video game play to serious aggression.
Facts: High levels of violent video game exposure have been linked to delinquency, fighting at school and during free play periods, and violent criminal behavior (e.g., self-reported assault, robbery)."

***
Ratchet, I'm sorry about my "duh" comment, I truly am. But I just think it's hard to be too careful with a child's development.

[lord odin]

I remember years ago they said bacon was bad same as eggs so the study said so the farmers got their own study done and what a surprise it turned out bacon and eggs were good again.
I don't trust the results of any study because there are too many variables.
As for kids being around violence sure some kids it will get to them but there is also some kids that it doesn't.
I was raised with two brothers and sisters and each of us are completely different but we had the same upbringing.

[Kingofthehill78]

I blame online forums for the way kids act these days :p ......

[sleepindeath]

I'm all for teaching a kid to shoot, but there's no way the firearm is going to accessible to him and kept at the family home.

IMO, the father needs to be charged and do some time for criminal negligence.

I agree 100%

[ratchet]

I don't know what the deal is with this shotgun-toting 11-year-old, but I can guarantee you that bad parenting played a factor.

I said that - that's what the real culprit is - not fake violence on the tv - Duh. :p


I don't trust the results of any study because there are too many variables.


Exactly. Human error is one of the biggest variables - especially if the people doing the studies are TRYING to prove something.