What I told Hudlin about his treatment of Spider-man

[Rome]

I just picked up your first issue of MK SM and I couldn't have been more horrified, disgusted, angry, dissapointed, and plain old pi$$ed off.
Mr. Hudlin, I said I wouldn't come to your website to diss you, so I will restrain myself as much as possible while expressing my feelings for your writing.

I want to be clear. I am not angry because I'm a SM fan who hates the idea of him getting beat. I try very hard to be objective regardless of my feelings, and though I cannot for the life of me understand why someone would launch their new assignement by making a "superhero" get chumped, in their own title, That is not what I'm upset about.

No, what ticks me off to no end is how poorly how, wrongly the character was handle. I started a thread way before I read this book, titled "common mistakes writer make about SM" and reginald Hudlin managed to hit most of those on his very first issue.

There are some good and some bad in the book,.but let's get to the real issue. Spider-man losing to Wolverine, especially in such a callous, effortless manner, is, for lack of a better word, stu.....Silly.

Mr. Hudlin for someone who has a "pretty good handle on the character" because he started from the "very first issue", you sure missed some pretty obvious facts about the character.

Mr. Hudlin,..Spider-man is Strong,..very, very strong. As I said in my other thread, SM is stronger to the average human, including Wolverine, than Hulk is to SM. Hulk is only TEN times stronger than SM, while SM is FORTY times stronger than Wolverine.

Mr. Hudlin, SM is fast, inhumanly fast. His reflexes and speed are much, much greater than the average human,, including Wolverine. He is fast enough to, from the proper distance, dodge bullets. Fast enough to avoid a room full of trained assassins armed with swords, knives, and claws. Fast enough to dodge a room full of trained assassins armed with GUNS.

SM also has a "spider-sense" which warns him of danger, Before they occur. This forwarning, coupled with his speed and reflexes, makes what happened in your book impossible. Even silly.

BUt it doesn't stop there. Mr.Hudlin, you must have missed the fact that Spider-man's webbing happens to be quite strong in all your reading. Very, very strong. Strong enough to stop a moving car in it's tracks. Strong enough to support the weight of a building. It is Impossible, impossible for a human being, including Woverine, to break it, much less tear through it as though it was toilet paper. Though there is a small window for the webbing to set from the time it is fired,..that weakness does not apply to the average human. Only the stronger opponents like DOc ock, Scorpion, or the Lizard, are strong enough to take advantage of that. The webbing comes out strong enough to support the weight of a grown man swinging from a building. There is no way, no way, for Wolverine, bound as he was, to have been able to tear and break the webbing. (keeping in mind he didn't cut through them with his claws.)


Those are silly, basic, mistakes that defy logic.

Never mind the intangibles. Nevermind the fact that Spider-man is the premier Marvel Superhero. Which means, that he is pound for pound the best, greatest, Superhero in the Marvel U. Nevermind that he has faced all levels of threats from all levels of villains and heroes, only to come out on top (unlike Wolverine who has gotten his butt kicked by quite a few people. Namely Cyclops, Collosus, Iron Fist but to name a few)

There is simply no explanation for your treatment of this character. Other than perhaps you are selling out to Marvel's decision to make Wolverine the end all be all of the Marvel Universe. There would be nothing wrong with that except that what you are making him capable of doing doesn't make sense. Wolverine "tagging" Spider-man is the equivalent of Spider-man knocking out the Hulk. It's just, well let's say it isn't very smart.

You hurt me deeply with your work. I now realize that my generation is being put to the side in order to attract a new breed of fans. I finally understand that Marvel will do whatever it takes to bring these new fans to the them. There are no more rules. Logic and common sense no longer applies. Continuity, no longer has any value. and History and tradition are for the old. I hope they are as loyal and that they spend as much as we have. You've won. I'm out of it. good bye.

[sleepindeath]

Well ROME,

I guess I will have to read my copy tonight. You have totally peeked my interest and I'm sorry to hear that you are done with Marvel.

[bomen]

Very well said. I stand 100% in this camp as well.

[bat_collector]

While I am not a spiderman fan in the least bit, Wolverine doesn't stand much of a chance to beat him.

[nbr3bagshotrow]

One swipe from a berzerk Wolverine's claws and there would be Spidergoo all over the floor. Adamantium slices through steel. SM's web would be like toilet paper. Never was a SM fan anyways.

[Rome]

Very well said. I stand 100% in this camp as well.
Thank you. It pi$$es me off to noe end, when stupid mistakes are made. Marvel seems to be hell bent on reducing Spider-man's appeal, prowess and abilities, in order to build up Wolverines.

I cannot believe that Spider-man appears to be the weak link, the "beast", of the Avengers. The Nightcrawler of the x-men, etc. SPIDER-MAN who can and has taken on all the Avengers. Now he's the guy to be rescued by Captain America! The guy who seems to have no clue. G#$%%& I hate this.

[nbr3bagshotrow]

Sounds like a book I might enjoy!

[abarron]

Not really up with all of spidermans "powers" and i do like wolverine and think he could take spiderman in a straight fist fight but with his spider-sense and webbing spidey should beat wolverine.

I think a lot of people (me included) sometimes forget that spider-man just isn't some kid that swings on home made webbing thats like silly-string.

Spiderman is strong, really strong and even the ultimate spider-man had a good go at the Hulk.

Strength wise Spider-man is stronger than wolverine even the Punisher has taken out wolverine. Ok he did use a steam roller :)

[Sam Wilson]

The fact of the matter is most writers take their own take on characters. Especially now, in the post Jemas marvel where continuity has been thrown out the window.

Yes, this makes me a little irratated, but I've learned to deal and try to accept stories for what they are, stories. And when I think of it that way there have been some great stories told about lots of character I've known and loved that have destroyed there continuity. And then there have been some really bad stories as well (I really hate Origin). But whatever, it's all good. I just try and stick to writers I know and like. Yeah, I like Reggie and am a fan of his Spidey and BP, but keep in mind, someday, someone else will take over and erase most of what he did as well. Do I want that to happen, no, but at the end of the day I don't own these characters, marvel does, and good or bad, they get to deciede what to do with them, and it's up to us as the consumer to support them or not.

[spider-man]

I also have to admit that marvel is making wolverine way more of a threat than he is. he just has claws and a healing ability . That isn't going to stop spider-man with increased strength ,a spider sense and speed from kicking his ass.

[MiamiLoco]

I was telling my friend a while back that someone in the comic book industry needs to be like Shatner. Someone needs to say "Get a Life!!" Quesada is somewhat close to that, where he doesn't feel he needs to make up excuses or apologize for any risks that he takes with these established characters. I mean, first of, it's a MARVEL KNIGHTS book, so already there you should try to understand that this book will be a little different from the others. Ok, so Spidey got beat up, that's the thing about the Marvel universe, that's why the Marvel universe has always been better at connecting with fans, than the DC universe. Unlike the iconic Superheroes of DC, Marvel superheroes have bad days, once in a while, they might be caught off guard and *gasp* loose a battle or two. I think it's ridiculous to judge Hudlin's work on the book on just ONE issue and the main concern being that Spidey got beat.

[MiamiLoco]

Yes, this makes me a little irratated, but I've learned to deal and try to accept stories for what they are, stories.
Couldn't of said it better myself Sam Wilson.

[nbr3bagshotrow]

"SM also has a "spider-sense" which warns him of danger, Before they occur. This forwarning, coupled with his speed and reflexes, makes what happened in your book impossible. Even silly."

Then he should never be hit by anyone at anytime.

[Crom]

Spider-man survived the Clone saga, I don't think getting beat up by Wolverine is going to set him back too far. And I might be going a bit out there, but maybe Reggie is just setting it up so that in a later issue, Wolverine gets beaten by Spidey.

Wolverine has fought the Hulk and I don't hear anyone crying about that. There are about 60 titles with Spider-Man in them at the moment, i have a feeling one of them will fit your sensibilities.

Relax.

[MiamiLoco]

"SM also has a "spider-sense" which warns him of danger, Before they occur. This forwarning, coupled with his speed and reflexes, makes what happened in your book impossible. Even silly."

Then he should never be hit by anyone at anytime.
WOW!! What a fun book THAT would make!! :rolleyes2

[madjazz]

I've had more problems with the Black Panther being a supporting character in his own book.

[furie]

WOW -- hehe -- I'm amused by this thread. Now, Reg is a personal friend of mine. W/ that said, he doesn't need me to stick up for him. And Rome u make some pretty good points, but trust me when I say, it isn't over until the fat lady sings. I think you'll be surprised w/ future issues of this book. It's not my place to say anything else, other than Reggie is a huge Spiderman fan and he is not sucking up to Marvel. Take a deep breath and give Reg the benefit of the doubt. Things will turn around. Nuff Said.

FURIE aka "Peace maker of the forum"
:buttrock:

[Sam Wilson]

WOW -- hehe -- I'm amused by this thread. Now, Reg is a personal friend of mine. W/ that said, he doesn't need me to stick up for him. And Rome u make some pretty good points, but trust me when I say, it isn't over until the fat lady sings. I think you'll be surprised w/ future issues of this book. It's not my place to say anything else, other than Reggie is a huge Spiderman fan and he is not sucking up to Marvel. Take a deep breath and give Reg the benefit of the doubt. Things will turn around. Nuff Said.

FURIE aka "Peace make of the forum"


Good point Furie. 1 issue of a 12 issue run is hardly indicative of the whole. That's like having one bad piece of pie and not wanting to have any more...

[CKinSD]

wow furie great point there. wow even my small mind thought as soon as I read that 20 different reason why it happened or how it could. I think this could lead into a cool tieing up of a few things that bother me, but I do not have time to be verbose with this.

Furie tell Reg. I think he has peaked my interest and I'll still get this book to see where he is taking SM.

I think it is more important that Jarvis and aunt May are hitting it off. if you want my opinion :D

[JDH]

Whoa. I thought I didn't like the book, but that was mainly to do with the art - Tan drew Spider-Woman's mask like Mockingbird's for heaven's sake. Wolverine gutting Spidey was the only mildly interesting thing about the issue (Spidey wouldn't have been expecting Logan to play so rough) but I'll wait to hear from you guys how it plays out. Having foolishly waited in vain for Millar's run to get better, I'm leaving MK Spidey with issue 13.

Rome, if you want to check out a more palatable Spidey Wolverine encounter, check out the first couple of issues of Marvel Team-Up...

[Zurbaran1]

Boy am I glad I sold my Spiderman Bronze, what a loser. Beaten by Wolverine. :laugh:

[CKinSD]

jdh. that marvel team up was classic SM and wolvie. great read.

[furie]

CK - Reg has a web site, check it out. U guys can post all your questions there. Reg doesn't mind difference of opinion. He's a smart guy and he'll give u his opinion.

I can honestly say, he's not sucking up to anyone. So eliminate that concern.

http://www.hudlinentertainment.com/

[Crom]

At $3 a pop, Wolverine could kiss Spidey and I would never know. Now that's something worth getting pissed off about.

Here's a question, would Spider-Man's spider-sense go off if Wolverine tried to kiss him? Would that be considered 'danger"?

[madjazz]

Whoa. I thought I didn't like the book, but that was mainly to do with the art - Tan drew Spider-Woman's mask like Mockingbird's for heaven's sake. Wolverine gutting Spidey was the only mildly interesting thing about the issue (Spidey wouldn't have been expecting Logan to play so rough) but I'll wait to hear from you guys how it plays out. Having foolishly waited in vain for Millar's run to get better, I'm leaving MK Spidey with issue 13.

Rome, if you want to check out a more palatable Spidey Wolverine encounter, check out the first couple of issues of Marvel Team-Up...
This book is set up to have each 12 issue arc have a different creative team. If you made it to 13, you should be done with Millar.

[Sam Wilson]

At $3 a pop, Wolverine could kiss Spidey and I would never know. Now that's something worth getting pissed off about.

Here's a question, would Spider-Man's spider-sense go off if Wolverine tried to kiss him? Would that be considered 'danger"?

Wouldn't that depend on his intentions :inquisiti ?

[Cage]

WOW! I'm sorry that you feel so strongly that you and Spidey have been wronged Rome. I guess my question is why even read any Spiderman series in which he gets beat unless its a weight-lifting competition against Hulk? One of the great appeals about Spidey in my opinion is that he is kinda like me. A guy with a hole bunch of crappy shi* that goes on his life but he still feel sresponsible to do his part to help. He is not invincible or infallible, but heroic, brave and has great perserverance. I love Spidey, I started my first meeting as a supervisor of ten Assistant DA's with the phrase "With great power comes great responsibility" (before the movie). So I can relate in a very basic level to Spidey in the sense that even through hard times you gotta do what you gotta do. To think that Spidey can't be stabbed by a cheap shot from Wolverine who despite what you have said (and I don't dispute your knowledge) is still kind of a bad ass himself, is kind of.....silly. Its your money and your sensibilities, spend it your own way and read what comics appeal to you. That is your absolute right. I'm sorry that you feel so disrespected. Hopefully you'll change your mind and borrow someone elses copy and like how it turns out. In the meantime keep reading Sam and WTKF's reviews.

[Crom]

Wouldn't that depend on his intentions :inquisiti ?

Well, Wolveirne manages to hit on every woman he meets in a comic, I figured it was just a matter of time before he hits on one of the guys.

[furie]

If u guys want to dislike something or hate on someone -- it should be SHORT PEOPLE. They are just evil.

[madjazz]

If u guys want to dislike something or hate on someone -- it should be SHORT PEOPLE. They are just evil.
Wolverine is short . . . . . :eplus2:

[cyberpunk12]

One of the great appeals about Spidey in my opinion is that he is kinda like me. A guy with a hole bunch of crappy shi* that goes on his life but he still feel sresponsible to do his part to help. He is not invincible or infallible, but heroic, brave and has great perserverance.

To think that Spidey can't be stabbed by a cheap shot from Wolverine who despite what you have said (and I don't dispute your knowledge) is still kind of a bad ass himself, is kind of.....silly.Well put Cage.

The heroes and villains of the Marvel Universe will tangle and tangle again. Hell, in Secret Wars Spidey trounced the entire team of X-Men before making a quick getaway. So Wolverine gets the best of Spider-Man this time. What fun would it be if every fight ended the same way? I think it's cool to see someone defy the odds, common sense, and logic to pull off the upset. How often has Spider-Man done that very thing? He's always going up against long odds and pulling out a W. On any given day, anything can happen. I think it makes for good storytelling.

[JDH]

This book is set up to have each 12 issue arc have a different creative team. If you made it to 13, you should be done with Millar.

Thanks, MJ, I know. I only meant that having hung in for 12 issues of a run that got steadily worse if anything, I'm not going to make the same mistake again.

[JDH]

jdh. that marvel team up was classic SM and wolvie. great read.

The fairly recent two-parter in Ultimate Spider-Man where Peter and Logan switch bodies is an absolute corker too. Great stuff.

[madjazz]

The fairly recent two-parter in Ultimate Spider-Man where Peter and Logan switch bodies is an absolute corker too. Great stuff.
The ultimate universe and characters should not be mentioned in the same thread as a serious discussion about the real Marvel Universe. These are two different animals.

[bat_collector]

First off, Prof X erased Spiderman's memory in secret war when he was gonna rat out the x-men. I take that as a W for Prof X.

Give the series a chance, if you liked spiderman.

And DC characters do have major setbacks. Just read Wargames or any bat book right now. he isn't having a jolly good time, he is dealign with major losses and problems right now.

[Perna]

This is great! Spidey gets beaten up by Wolverine.

[ashley76]

The ultimate universe and characters should not be mentioned in the same thread as a serious discussion about the real Marvel Universe. These are two different animals.
Don't go there MadJazz.

[Bullseye]

This is one occasion i will agree with Rome. As a huge Spidey fan theres nothing worse IMO than that little fart Wolverine coming in and doin the impossible 'beating Spider-man' don't make me laugh. I just hope that the current writer puts things right in the very near future. As IMO Wolverine is totally overated and totally over exposed. And shouldn't be let out of X-men.

I'll give him the benefit of the doubt as Furie has suggested. But you don't dish the main character in his own comic book. Sure he will lose a couple of battles to his nemisis but not to another so called super hero.

[Rome]

To answer some of you guys's points. Please, I want to be clear. As I stated in my post,..I'm not some fan who's upset that Spider-man got beat. Yes as a spidey fan I hate it when he loses (which is rare), but that is not why I wrote this, or why I hate Marvel in general.

I would write the same thread if a writer wrote an issue of the Hulk in which he got knocked out by spider-man with one punch.

The reason I'm upset is that it's stupid. It defies logic, insults my intelligence, and completely wipes out the character's hard earned place in history.

Comics today may be more sophisticated and have better art work, but incoherance and stupidity still bothers me. and with jemas' legacy that anything goes,..even the best written comics are stupid.

The way Wolverine was webbed up for example, it would be impossible for him to break the webbing. Period. This means the writer simply did not do his homework, or made a very silly, stupid mistake. Well I hate that kind of incompetence.

Look I guess what i'm trying to say is this. You can write a story in which Wolverine beats Spider-man. I myself can come up with several scenarios in which that can happen. Just as I can write a story in which SM knocksout the Hulk. You can write a book in which Spider-man gets tagged by Wolverine. That is fine. But, if you're going to do so, please, at least write it well. Write it in a way that accomodates for the differences in strength speed, power, and experience. Write it in a way that makes sense.

This story does none of that. As I said, it is the equivalent of Spider-man and Hulk facing off, and Spider-man just decking the Hulk with one punch. It is implausible,..... stupid even.

Even the biggest Wolverine fan, if he's objective must agree with that. Spider-man has managed to go all the years, fighting all levels of people, without ever getting tagged (keep in mind this was a killing blow), to have Wolverine do it so casually, so easily, is simply stupid. Never mind SM's extra powers over Wolverine.

nothing that can happen from now on would do away with that. unless we learn that at the time something was interfering with SM's abilities.


for those who argue that I should just enjoy the book and forget continuity, common sense, history, facts, and logic,..I say, sorry but I can't. I cannot and will not continue to read Marvel if in one issue the Hulk is impossibly strong, and in another comic he's getting kicked around by guys like DD. logic and intelligence still apply even when dealing with sci fi. That is why I loved Marvel in the first place. If you can, more power to you.

[Cage]

I only read it once, but Wolvie (I think) gets in a cheap shot. Plus, Peter just got fired, had to see Absorbing Man blowing chunks (literally), Aunt May kickin' it, amd MJ (looking extremely hot) flurting with Logan.

[bat_collector]

Your post is a classic example of why Spidey like superman are not for me. Just wayyyy over-powered. YOu don't even have the element of surprise because of that stupid spidersense. And he's faster, more agile, and stronger than normal. NO real weaknesses beyond magic, psy-power, or a cosmic entity. They had to create a double of him that he couldn't use his spider-sense with to give him a half-decent enemy (venom) and then

Cheap!

I appreciate his place in history, enjoy the movies, and even plan to pick up cleary'ls spider man or two but he isn't my fave. Just like superman.

[Rome]

I only read it once, but Wolvie (I think) gets in a cheap shot. Plus, Peter just got fired, had to see Absorbing Man blowing chunks (literally), Aunt May kickin' it, amd MJ (looking extremely hot) flurting with Logan.
you're not seriously suggesting that SM was preoccupied with personal issues, and therefor allowed himself to get stabbed in the chest are you Cage? I don't know if you've ever read SM comics, but I dont think Peter has ever not had crap on his mind. Come on Cage.

As far as it being a "cheap shot", well cheap shot or not it was still a killing blow. And Spider-man happens to have a particular power called his spider-sense which would warn him that someone is about to stab him in the chest.

[Bullseye]

But Mike your missing a point on Wolverine. How could someone who is stronger, quicker and have more intelligence lose to a basic grunt. And in his own comic. Lets put it this way. Would Marvel do the same in reverse. Would they have Spidey appear in one of his comics kicking his ass. I think not.

[Cage]

you're not seriously suggesting that SM was preoccupied with personal issues, and therefor allowed himself to get stabbed in the chest are you Cage? I don't know if you've ever read SM comics, but I dont think Peter has ever not had crap on his mind. Come on Cage.

As far as it being a "cheap shot", well cheap shot or not it was still a killing blow. And Spider-man happens to have a particular power called his spider-sense which would warn him that someone is about to stab him in the chest.

Dude..it was practice. They picked teams. Again, I'm not going to debate with you., but are you telling me that Spiderman should never get his ass whipped? Do I think he allowed himself to get stabbed? No. Could he have been emotionally a little screwd so that yeah he wasn't "on his game" in a play fight? Why not? Why can't someone else have an opinion. I'm not dissing you or Spiderman by offering possibilities. This **** is not personal to me. Sorry. I'm not trying to piss you off. The last post I did was while you were posting the last 8 paragraph message. As for it being a killing blow, I don't think Spidey is gonna die, bro.

[bat_collector]

But Mike your missing a point on Wolverine. How could someone who is stronger, quicker and have more intelligence lose to a basic grunt. And in his own comic. Lets put it this way. Would Marvel do the same in reverse. Would they have Spidey appear in one of his comics kicking his ass. I think not.
Robert I agree with you there. Wolvie can't beat spiderman one on one. but, this whole mess is basically revolving around people who are upset because "spiderman should never get beat" premise which I hate. That is why I really don't like his character, no real weaknesses.

[galactus]

Better yet, WHO THE HELL CARES???? I mean, c'mon, so Spidey gets "tagged" by Wolverine in one issue. It's not the end of the world, and certainly no reason to diss a writer and disolve Marvel comics from your life forever.
I mean, if someone writing something stupid (even once, let alone MANY times) is reason enough to diss them, well, I can think of a few people on this very thread that need a serious dissing :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

[Rome]

Robert I agree with you there. Wolvie can't beat spiderman one on one. but, this whole mess is basically revolving around people who are upset because "spiderman should never get beat" premise which I hate. That is why I really don't like his character, no real weaknesses.
Ok this is what always gets me in trouble but for the life of me I don't know how to say this without being rude. Is it that people don't read what I write or that you read it but lack the ability to understand it?
Seriously,......what part of
"this is not about SM gettting beat" or " I can imagine a scenarios in which Wolverine can beat him" do you not understand?

Seriously

[Rome]

Dude..it was practice. They picked teams. Again, I'm not going to debate with you., but are you telling me that Spiderman should never get his ass whipped? Do I think he allowed himself to get stabbed? No. Could he have been emotionally a little screwd so that yeah he wasn't "on his game" in a play fight? Why not? Why can't someone else have an opinion. I'm not dissing you or Spiderman by offering possibilities. This **** is not personal to me. Sorry. I'm not trying to piss you off. The last post I did was while you were posting the last 8 paragraph message. As for it being a killing blow, I don't think Spidey is gonna die, bro.
Dude believe me I'm not trying to piss you off either. I was just pointing out that it just so happens that Spider-man's thing is that he's angst ridden. That he always has some personal issues going on, (which are much much worst than in this comic). In fact, that's his thing. So to say that was the reason just doesn't work. Not in this particular case.

And to answer your current question "are you telling me that Spiderman should never get his ass whipped?" well off course not. I clearly stated Cage, clearly stated that this isn't about Spidey losing. so to answer, no that is not what I'm saying. SPider-man can lose. As long as what happens in the comic makes sense. Win, lose or draw,, it has to make sense.

this isn't just about Spider-man it's about logic, and good writing. I would argue the same for Wolverine, if DD, laid him out with one punch. Given Wolverine's powers, that should be impossible. So any writer who writes that would be doing something wrong.

lastly, whether he survives or not doesn't change the fact that it was a killing blow. One which could, and even should have killed him.

[Bullseye]

Spidey has been beaten in battles many times and regrouped and eventually triumphed. I have no problem with Spidey getting his ass kicked now and again as it shows his vulnerability, which isn’t evident in most super heroes. He is a kid at the end of the day. This is why I love the character. He is my number one and always will be. But to be beaten as described in such a brutal manner as described strikes me as showing no respect to the character. I hope the current writer proves me wrong and some balance to the storey is given.

[SirConor]

DD pretty much did lay Wolvie out in 1 punch in Wolvie's series during the Enemy of the State arc, and I was sad but I got over it.

I don't think Wolverine could beat Spiderman 9 out of 10 times and he's my favorite favorite character. However, Spiderman simply isnt impervious and infallible... and I'm happy Wolvie beat him just this once. He's capable of it, but would have to get super lucky, which I think this instance is represents. GO WOLVIE!!!!!!!!

[Rome]

DD pretty much did lay Wolvie out in 1 punch in Wolvie's series during the Enemy of the State arc, and I was sad but I got over it.

I don't think Wolverine could beat Spiderman 9 out of 10 times and he's my favorite favorite character. However, Spiderman simply isnt impervious and infallible... and I'm happy Wolvie beat him just this once. He's capable of it, but would have to get super lucky, which I think this instance is represents. GO WOLVIE!!!!!!!!

from what I recall DD and Wolvie fought until they both tumbled down some stairs, at which point DD picked up an iron dumbell and smashed wolverine in the face with it, which caused him to stumble and fall on a sword.

I wouldn't call that laying wolvie out with one punch.

[furie]

It seems a lot of people think Marvel has this agenda -- Promote Wolverine at the expense of SM.

I'm not saying Marvel is a wonderful place -- I mean what happened btw them and Stan Lee is shocking. But this story ark comes from the mind of the writer. Not some hidden agenda that Marvel has. And as far as the whole Wolvie/Sm incident. They were training when SM got stabbed -- maybe his guard was down. I don't know why that is so difficult to fathom.

What's nice about this thread is that its promoted an interesting discussion. We should get Reggie in here to respond. I'll forward this to him.

[Perna]

Maybe it shows Spidey isn't ready to be an Avenger.

[Bartman256]

Here's my 2 cents:

First off, I'm a HUGE Spider-Man fan. Spidey is pretty much the reason why I'm even here on the forum. I started "collecting" Spider-Man before I could read! As an adult I have a full set of EVERY Spider-Man title. This of course evolved into collectibles...

Before I get started, I've been thinking about this character and I have to say, I'm a fan of Peter Parker...more so than of Spider-Man. This character has become a friend to me over the years. During the brief time I was away from the hobby, I would wonder from time to time what was going on in Pete's life? IMO, this is what made this character so special. I cared about the guy under the mask. My older cousins introduced me to comics. Of course we would have the same old arguement...my guy could beat your guy...Tom's fave was Green Lantern, Marc's was the Flash...me I went Marvel & Spidey was my guy. They would laugh...I didn't stand a chance against their heroes.

Spider-Man is extremely strong and fast and agile...BUT my hero, for all his abilities, gets his @$$ handed to him on a regular basis. The guy catches beatings...but he fights on. I remember from the beginning, he would get smacked up pretty bad. The Vulture, YES the Vulture broke his arm in issue 7. Doc Ock smacked him around in issues 3 & 12! This all in the 1st 12 issues alone! The common cold has pretty much defeated Pete in the past. But the guy never gave up!

Wolverine...this guy is a killing machine. Animal like reflexes and senses. Adamantium claws & skeleton coupled with an incredibly fast healing factor...this guy is a badass. Remember, this guy ALMOST killed the Hulk...THE HULK for crissake! This is no middle weight.

As far as Spider-Sense goes, never a big fan of this power. But, as stated before, this was NOT an enemy he was fighting, it was a training exercise. It was a "cheap" shot. Spidey never expected it. Besides, I don't think this injury is as bad as it appears.

I stuck around through some pretty lean years as far as storylines go. This is a far cry from the worst. I'll be buying this title.

[madjazz]

Bartman - Well spoken. Today this issue moved to the top of my pile and I'll try to read it before logging on tomorrow. I agree with furie - this was an interesting conversation to follow.

[bat_collector]

Ok this is what always gets me in trouble but for the life of me I don't know how to say this without being rude. Is it that people don't read what I write or that you read it but lack the ability to understand it?
Seriously,......what part of
"this is not about SM gettting beat" or " I can imagine a scenarios in which Wolverine can beat him" do you not understand?

Seriously
Then why are you having such a hissy fit?

And last time I checked my posts were to bullseye about my distaste for spider-man not a rome-chew out.

[ickwinzs]

hahahha, I posted after Sam did his review that I did not care for Mr. Hudlins take on spidey but before I toss em in a box I will read to see how this pans out.

[furie]

Rome -- I can be slow at times. Didn't I address what u stated? Not to try and sway you, but simply address what u said?

[Crom]

I remember an X-Men issue when Prof. X became a Brood. He was reading Wolverine's thoughts and knew what he was about to do, but Wolverine's instinct and reflexes changed so quickly that the Brood couldn't read his mind quickly enough. He is often times portrayed as more animal than man. I haven't read the issue where he stabs Spidey, but his decision to do it may have been even faste rthan Spidey's spider-sense.

I also believe, and I could be wrong, that Spider-man's spider-sense doesn't account for every attack made against him, and can be beaten by speed or randomness. Didn't the Hobgoblin create a glove that fired blasts randomly to beat Spidey's sense? That should make even less sense than Wolverine stabbing him. Where the Hobgoblin shoots shouldn't matter, it is the danger of his shooting which set sof Spider-man's defenses.

[madjazz]

Based on this thread yesterday, I made sure I read this book before I went to bed so I could intelligently comment on Rome’s plot points.

Rome seemed to have 3 Major concerns:

1) Spider-man lost to Wolverine
2) Spider-man’s “spider sense” should have given him warning about the stabbing
3) Wolverine should not be able to shread webbing so easily

Rome, I love your post and you have spelled out your reasoning. I think you are making many assumptions as to what occurred, and I do not think they are all on the money. Let me tell you what I saw.

Spider-man did not lose to Wolverine. They are in a training exercise. Spider-man looked like he was standing to me in the last panel. There was no panel drawn in which Spider-man looked like he was overpowered. This scene is not over yet and you need to see the next issue before you can know how this ends.

You express concerns that the “spider sense” should have given warning and allowed Spider-man to avoid the stabbing. It is equally plausible that because this is a training exercise, Wolverine pulled his claws back in to significantly less than an inch before he penetrated. This would result in a superficial wound that did no real damage. As he pulled back, he could have re-extended his claws for effect. This seems highly likely due to Spider-man’s reaction of “Logan, you idiot. . . .” If Spider-man had just been penetrated by the full length of claw, his first concern would be for surveying the damage to himself and not to cuss out Logan. He would probably also double over and push in on the stomach to stem what would be serious bleeding. Because he was in no real danger and Logan meant him no real harm, the spider-sense would not have been triggered.

As for the webbing, I can use a 100 pound test line while fishing. It is strong enough to resist 100 pounds of pressure. I could pull in a 20 pound Bluefish on this line and yet my five year old could sever this line with a pair of construction paper scissors. Webbing can hold the weight of Spider-man swinging from building to building due to it’s durability on the ”pull” action. Fishing line is more likely to hold back a blunt object than a sharp object if it were used to tie someone up, and webbing would perform in the same way. To further complicate things, as Spider-man’s webs are now organic, we do not know how their performance is different from Peter Parker’s web formula.

Rome, I think there is a strong possibility that Reggie pulled a fast one on you, and you gave him exactly the reaction he was going for. I could be completely wrong, but you won’t know for sure either way until you pick up the next issue.

[Perna]

Very good points Mr. Madjazz with the awesome chair. I alway thought Spider-mans spider-sense worked only with unknown danger and not in an environment where he knows he is training.

I remember the one time when I kicked him in the nuts. He sure wasn't expecting that! :D

[Rome]

Here's my 2 cents:

First off, I'm a HUGE Spider-Man fan. Spider-Man is extremely strong and fast and agile...BUT my hero, for all his abilities, gets his @$$ handed to him on a regular basis. The guy catches beatens...but he fights on. I remember from the beginning, he would get smacked up pretty bad. The Vulture, YES the Vulture broke his arm in issue 7. Doc Ock smacked him around in issues 3 & 12! This all in the 1st 12 issues alone! The common cold has pretty much defeated Pete in the past. But the guy never gave up!

Wolverine...this guy is a killing machine. Animal like reflexes and senses. Adamantium claws & skeleton coupled with an incredibly fast healing factor...this guy is a badass. Remember, this guy ALMOST killed the Hulk...THE HULK for crissake! This is no middle weight.

As far as Spider-Sense goes, never a big fan of this power. But, as stated before, this was NOT an enemy he was fighting, it was a training exercise. It was a "cheap" shot. Spidey never expected it. Besides, I don't think this injury is as bad as it appears.

I stuck around through some pretty lean years as far as storylines go. This is a far cry from the worst. I'll be buying this title.

You know, after reading your post, I was very confused, because that perspective was interesting from a "huge fan". To characterize your favorite hero as "getting his a$$ handed to him on a regular basis" is suspect to say the least. Especially when it isn't true.
It's interesting that you would site the first 12 issues of SM, when he was still learning his abilities

It's interesting that you would characterize the Vulture as "breaking his arm" in issue 7, when what actually happened was the Vulture tricked SM and caught him by surprise with a series of punches which didn't hurt him but caused him to fall over the side of a building. He tried to make a web but missed and fell. The fall broke his arm. I would have said personaly, the Vulture caused SM to break his arm in a fight. But I guess that's just me.

It's intersting, that as a fan, you site this example but completely ignore that SM, chased Vulture all over the place and ultimately defeated him with one hand tied (well not quite behind his back), literally.

It's interesting that as a SM fan you didn't catch on to the fact that Stan Lee realized how much more powerful SM was compared to his human powered foes, and almost always, gave SM some ailment some handicap, some disadvantage, in order to make the fights more interesting and competitive. Hence the broken arm.

It's interesting that as a SM fan you site, and mischaracterize SM's second fight with the Vulture, but ignore fights where he defeated two Vultures, and Kraven, without much difficulty.

It's interesing that you failed to realize that a guy who "gets his a$$ handed to him on a regular basis" beat the crap out of Firelord, beat Namor, faced Silver surfer, Hulk, Juggernaut, and pretty much everyone in the Marvel U.

hummm???

Now the kicker for me was that, as a Spider-man fan, you describe Wolverine as a "killing machine" and as a "bad ass".

Intersting that you say, He "almost killed the Hulk. The HULK!" when nothing could be further from the truth. Though he did indeed stab the Hulk quite dramatically, it seems you skipped a couple of very important points.

First- it was the Gray Hulk, who is much, much less powerfull than the regular Hulk
Second,- though the stab was very dramatic, it came nowhere near "killing " the HUlk. Peter David had established that Hulks' Invulnerability came as a result of an over exaggerated healing factor. This would make the Hulk's healing (yes even gray Hulk) at least as powerfull as Wolverine's. In fact, quite obviously much more powerfull, as he doesn't get half the damage Wolverine gets. And kowing, as I sure you must, that Wolverine can and has survived much, much worst, I think it's pretty safe to conclude that the Hulk was nowhere near "death".

It's interesting that you failed to mention that in subsequent figths with green Hulk, Woverine is little more than an annoyance to the Hulk. A chihuahua barking at his heal.

Lastly, it's fascinating that you failed to meantion that this "killing Machine" has pretty much lost (at least until very recently) to every half decent superhero he's faced. That Cyclops humiliated him on several occasions. Colossus beat the crap out of him. Iron fist beat him down and threw him out of a window, DD recently "beat him" and so on and so on.

yes interesting indeed

[furie]

Okay -- Reggie is well aware of this thread. He said he'll reply. I'm looking forward to it. But until then, I'm going to find the biggest bee hive I can -- and blow on it.
:eplus2:

[bat_collector]

AFter reading Rome's post about spidey I feel more than justified in feeling my thoughts are spidey are correct. Too tricked out!

[Rome]

Based on this thread yesterday, I made sure I read this book before I went to bed so I could intelligently comment on Rome’s plot points.

Rome seemed to have 3 Major concerns:

1) Spider-man lost to Wolverine
2) Spider-man’s “spider sense” should have given him warning about the stabbing
3) Wolverine should not be able to shread webbing so easily

Rome, I love your post and you have spelled out your reasoning. I think you are making many assumptions as to what occurred, and I do not think they are all on the money. Let me tell you what I saw.

Spider-man did not lose to Wolverine. They are in a training exercise. Spider-man looked like he was standing to me in the last panel. There was no panel drawn in which Spider-man looked like he was overpowered. This scene is not over yet and you need to see the next issue before you can know how this ends.


Madjazz,.with respect,. he stabbed him in the chest with his claws. Next to his heart. The only way reggie could prove more incompetent is if he allows this fight to continue. especially given the fact that it was a training and the others are around. I hope they rush him to some kind of Hospital.

You express concerns that the “spider sense” should have given warning and allowed Spider-man to avoid the stabbing. It is equally plausible that because this is a training exercise, Wolverine pulled his claws back in to significantly less than an inch before he penetrated. This would result in a superficial wound that did no real damage. As he pulled back, he could have re-extended his claws for effect. This seems highly likely due to Spider-man’s reaction of “Logan, you idiot. . . .” If Spider-man had just been penetrated by the full length of claw, his first concern would be for surveying the damage to himself and not to cuss out Logan. He would probably also double over and push in on the stomach to stem what would be serious bleeding. Because he was in no real danger and Logan meant him no real harm, the spider-sense would not have been triggered.


Mad,..are you serious? seriously,..are you serious? Aren't you going very, very , very far, to explain away what is right in front of you? My g0d, has it really gotten so bad. Can we truly rationalize to this extent. Do you realize how in control Wolverine would have to be Over Spider-man to even think about doing what you describe. How much more skill he would have to have than Spider-man? Even if Spider-man was standing still it would be a tough thing to do. My G0d man,.."equally plausible"? Is Reggie paying you? cause he should.

As for the webbing, I can use a 100 pound test line while fishing. It is strong enough to resist 100 pounds of pressure. I could pull in a 20 pound Bluefish on this line and yet my five year old could sever this line with a pair of construction paper scissors. Webbing can hold the weight of Spider-man swinging from building to building due to it’s durability on the ”pull” action. Fishing line is more likely to hold back a blunt object than a sharp object if it were used to tie someone up, and webbing would perform in the same way. To further complicate things, as Spider-man’s webs are now organic, we do not know how their performance is different from Peter Parker’s web formula.


Mad,..you just read the book last night,..please look at it again. Wolverine does not cut the webbing. He doesn't cut it. He breaks it. Pulls it apart. They way he was webbed up, there is no way for him to have cut the webbing. Both arms extended against a wall renders his claws ineffective. DO you think that if I used fishing line and tied you up in such a manner you would have the abilty to pull it apart?



Rome, I think there is a strong possibility that Reggie pulled a fast one on you, and you gave him exactly the reaction he was going for. I could be completely wrong, but you won’t know for sure either way until you pick up the next issue.
If he did, he did it poorly and incompetently.

[madjazz]

Rome, I had the book in front of me as I typed my response. You saw what you saw, I see what I see. I took your viewpoint into account and made my own judgements.

Wolverine has shown this kind of control before, so no new ground will be broken if I'm right. (And I feel 90% confident that I am).

You are claiming disrespect to the Spider-man character at the same time you disrespect the Wolverine character. The only thing that is important is that we will have the answer in one month, and if I am right about what actually happened, I expect a post back here admitting that. If your assumptions are correct, then I will do the same. Tick tock, tick tock. . .

(and I loved the face off between Logan and Peter Parker, where Parker had about 6" on him. Very funny.)

[bat_collector]

Wolverine just polarized everyone, doesn't he.

Its either "he is wayy too powerful" or "he isn't powerful enough"

[Rome]

Rome, I had the book in front of me as I typed my response. You saw what you saw, I see what I see. I took your viewpoint into account and made my own judgements.

Wolverine has shown this kind of control before, so no new ground will be broken if I'm right. (And I feel 90% confident that I am).

You are claiming disrespect to the Spider-man character at the same time you disrespect the Wolverine character. The only thing that is important is that we will have the answer in one month, and if I am right about what actually happened, I expect a post back here admitting that. If your assumptions are correct, then I will do the same. Tick tock, tick tock. . .

(and I loved the face off between Logan and Peter Parker, where Parker had about 6" on him. Very funny.)
Well mad, I would love to ask you where Wolverine has ever done such a thing, and I would like to point out that nothing I've said "disrespects Wolverine (keep in mind those battles where he lost exist. I didn't write them, merely pointed them out), and I would like to ask you to explain how Wolverine could have cut the web with his arms extended and webbed to the wall as it was, and finally I would like to point out the blood on Wolverine's claws as an indication of how deep it went,..but I think you're right. This would just go round and around at this stage. Even though I don't think it really has anything to do with what I'm talking about, I promise that if that is in fact Hudlin's explanation (including why the Spider-sense didn't alert him) I will come back and admit that. :buttrock:

[furie]

Rome -- great thread u started. I guess we will all find out in due time.

[furie]

Reginald hudlin
Sr. Member

Posts: 400






Re: Well I picked up RH's MK Spider-man and
« Reply #1 on: April 25, 2005, 04:59:24 PM »



So you're saying you didn't like it?

[Bartman256]

You know, after reading your post, I was very confused, because that perspective was interesting from a "huge fan". To characterize your favorite hero as "getting his a$$ handed to him on a regular basis" is suspect to say the least. Especially when it isn't true.
It's interesting that you would site the first 12 issues of SM, when he was still learning his abilities

It's interesting that you would characterize the Vulture as "breaking his arm" in issue 7, when what actually happened was the Vulture tricked SM and caught him by surprise with a series of punches which didn't hurt him but caused him to fall over the side of a building. He tried to make a web but missed and fell. The fall broke his arm. I would have said personaly, the Vulture caused SM to break his arm in a fight. But I guess that's just me.

It's intersting, that as a fan, you site this example but completely ignore that SM, chased Vulture all over the place and ultimately defeated him with one hand tied (well not quite behind his back), literally.

It's interesting that as a SM fan you didn't catch on to the fact that Stan Lee realized how much more powerful SM was compared to his human powered foes, and almost always, gave SM some ailment some handicap, some disadvantage, in order to make the fights more interesting and competitive. Hence the broken arm.

It's interesting that as a SM fan you site, and mischaracterize SM's second fight with the Vulture, but ignore fights where he defeated two Vultures, and Kraven, without much difficulty.

It's interesing that you failed to realize that a guy who "gets his a$$ handed to him on a regular basis" beat the crap out of Firelord, beat Namor, faced Silver surfer, Hulk, Juggernaut, and pretty much everyone in the Marvel U.

hummm???

Now the kicker for me was that, as a Spider-man fan, you describe Wolverine as a "killing machine" and as a "bad ass".

Intersting that you say, He "almost killed the Hulk. The HULK!" when nothing could be further from the truth. Though he did indeed stab the Hulk quite dramatically, it seems you skipped a couple of very important points.

First- it was the Gray Hulk, who is much, much less powerfull than the regular Hulk
Second,- though the stab was very dramatic, it came nowhere near "killing " the HUlk. Peter David had established that Hulks' Invulnerability came as a result of an over exaggerated healing factor. This would make the Hulk's healing (yes even gray Hulk) at least as powerfull as Wolverine's. In fact, quite obviously much more powerfull, as he doesn't get half the damage Wolverine gets. And kowing, as I sure you must, that Wolverine can and has survived much, much worst, I think it's pretty safe to conclude that the Hulk was nowhere near "death".

It's interesting that you failed to mention that in subsequent figths with green Hulk, Woverine is little more than an annoyance to the Hulk. A chihuahua barking at his heal.

Lastly, it's fascinating that you failed to meantion that this "killing Machine" has pretty much lost (at least until very recently) to every half decent superhero he's faced. That Cyclops humiliated him on several occasions. Colossus beat the crap out of him. Iron fist beat him down and threw him out of a window, DD recently "beat him" and so on and so on.

yes interesting indeed

Rome, it's interesting to me how many times you can say interesting in one post!

I used the 1st 12 issues because that's what I had on had (reprint form). But as memory serves me, Spider-Man usually does "lose" whenever he's faced a foe. But he always comes back. It's just the way I see it as I look back on his history. Think about it...how many times has he gone to work/home & had to explain/lie as to how he got "beat-up". Spider-Man is hardly the Superman of the Marvel Universe!

The reason I went on describing Wolverine is it appears you were somewhat bashing or discrediting this hero. To call him "human" is really a major understatement.

By the way, when Spidey faced the Hulk & Juggy, what happened? He got his @$$ handed to him!
The Firelord incident was one of those examples of bad storylines I mentioned in my original post.

In closing, I just would like to say that just because I say my hero is fallible and point it out, does not make me any less a fan than you. I love his weaknesses. His mistakes. His self doubt. It makes him all the more real. I think that was what Stan Lee was trying to get across....

[cyberpunk12]

Reginald hudlin
Sr. Member

Posts: 400

Re: Well I picked up RH's MK Spider-man and
« Reply #1 on: April 25, 2005, 04:59:24 PM »

So you're saying you didn't like it?
:laugh:

[madjazz]

OK. Issue #14 has come out. Time to continue the discussion

I read the book last night and just reread the thread.

I was wrong about Wolverine intentionally pulling his claws back. As promised, I am back here admitting that.

Spiderman did take the full shot. Wolverine seemed just as surprised. Spiderman got pissed and started in on Logan. He eventually passed out from blood loss. We know the heart was not hit because the writing and the art tell us so. Cap dresses down Wolverine.

This all seems logical. I have no problems. I find myself wanting to see the next installment.

Because Wolverine was a friend and had no intent to harm, and the shot was not aimed at the heart, I can buy the fact that the spider-sense was not triggered. It's not like Marvel has published the Spider-Sense Owners Manual. I am of the impression that this is consistent with most continuity.

I am reminded of something my mother used to say "Stop playing with those sticks - you'll poke your eye out.".

I love the Wolverine line after Peter accused him of hitting on MJ to the effect of - "What? You're kidding me, right? Peter, you're a nerd who finally got a hot chick. I'm happy for you, but that doesn't mean everyone is after her."

Cap - "How'd he get loose?"
Iron Man - "Blood made him slippery."

Is that supposed to be the Sentry at the end? If it is, it is funny to see they have the "Superman of the Marvel Universe" trying to pull the Clark Kent routine.

I don't know who this girl is, but I like the way she is manipulating Creed to do more than grab the nearest piece of metal and hit. She's getting him thinking in a way that will only make him a more formidable villain.

People finding out Spider-man is Peter Parker is getting old. Hopefully there is at least a unique spin coming.

The bottom line issue from last time from Rome is that Reg Hudlin is a hack. I am enjoying this story so far and cannot buy into that premise.

[JDH]

OK. Issue #14 has come out. Time to continue the discussion

I read the book last night and just reread the thread.

I was wrong about Wolverine intentionally pulling his claws back. As promised, I am back here admitting that.

Spiderman did take the full shot. Wolverine seemed just as surprised. Spiderman got pissed and started in on Logan. He eventually passed out from blood loss. We know the heart was not hit because the writing and the art tell us so. Cap dresses down Wolverine.

This all seems logical. I have no problems. I find myself wanting to see the next installment.

Because Wolverine was a friend and had no intent to harm, and the shot was not aimed at the heart, I can buy the fact that the spider-sense was not triggered. It's not like Marvel has published the Spider-Sense Owners Manual. I am of the impression that this is consistent with most continuity.

I am reminded of something my mother used to say "Stop playing with those sticks - you'll poke your eye out.".

I love the Wolverine line after Peter accused him of hitting on MJ to the effect of - "What? You're kidding me, right? Peter, you're a nerd who finally got a hot chick. I'm happy for you, but that doesn't mean everyone is after her."

Cap - "How'd he get loose?"
Iron Man - "Blood made him slippery."

Is that supposed to be the Sentry at the end? If it is, it is funny to see they have the "Superman of the Marvel Universe" trying to pull the Clark Kent routine.

I don't know who this girl is, but I like the way she is manipulating Creed to do more than grab the nearest piece of metal and hit. She's getting him thinking in a way that will only make him a more formidable villain.

People finding out Spider-man is Peter Parker is getting old. Hopefully there is at least a unique spin coming.

The bottom line issue from last time from Rome is that Reg Hudlin is a hack. I am enjoying this story so far and cannot buy into that premise.

Dammit, MJ, you have me considering taking a look at it. And here's me thinking I didn't need to go to a comic shop this week. I'm still skeptical, as both the writing and the art were big turn-offs for me in #13, but you at least have made me consider that I might be missing something. If I buy it and hate it, I'm charging you!;)

[marvelboi77]

It's a comic if you don't like a writer than don't by his work. Other than that theres not much else you can do. Since your boy cotting Marvel why don't you sell your Bowen sculpts and stop buying instead of giving them more money. I bought both issues and I was entertained.

[Bullseye]

It's a comic if you don't like a writer than don't by his work. Other than that theres not much else you can do. Since your boy cotting Marvel why don't you sell your Bowen sculpts and stop buying instead of giving them more money. I bought both issues and I was entertained.

Would you be saying that if it were Spiderwoman being messed about.

[wktf]

...Because Wolverine was a friend and had no intent to harm, and the shot was not aimed at the heart, I can buy the fact that the spider-sense was not triggered. It's not like Marvel has published the Spider-Sense Owners Manual. I am of the impression that this is consistent with most continuity...
You know, to this point, I remember a Spider-Man issue way, way back...possible a Lee/Romita Sr issue...where Aunt May sneeks up on Spider-Man and smashes a flower vase over his head. As Spidey slips into unconsiousness he wonders why his spider sense didn't warn him. It's because the assailant was Aunt May, his beloved parental figure. So, there's precedent for Spidey's spider sense to trip him up under these circumstances. I buy this, too, MJ.

Bought the book yesterday but haven't read it yet. Tonight, likely.

[furie]

I will say Spiderwoman NEVER looked better.

[marvelboi77]

Would you be saying that if it were Spiderwoman being messed about.
What are you talking about..... Spider-Woman been killed, brought back to life, Got a Bull Dyke hair cut for a while, lost her powers..... It's called a story, I'm not the one writing it but I can choose if I will buy it. Just because someone does something you don't like doesn't mean there arn't other great comics for you to read.

In fact all of my favorite characters through out life except for the She-Hulk have been messed with. First Spider-Woman dies, then Supergirl dies, Then Wonder Woman dies, the Batgirl gets crippled.

[furie]

Well said Marvel.

[Sam Wilson]

In fact all of my favorite characters through out life except for the She-Hulk have been messed with. First Spider-Woman dies, then Supergirl dies, Then Wonder Woman dies, the Batgirl gets crippled.

Yeah, and someone in the '90's gave falcon a really femmie body suit. I got over it, but I'm still a little chaffed...

[lord odin]

Would you be saying that if it were Spiderwoman being messed about. :laugh:

[madjazz]

Yeah, and someone in the '90's gave falcon a really femmie body suit. I got over it, but I'm still a little chaffed...
Did you see what they did to Hellcat in this 2000 mini-series?

http://www.comics.org/graphics/covers/7291/200/7291_2_1.jpg

[marvelboi77]

Oh yeah they also Killed Storm whom later turned out not to be Storm but they still did it. They killed Psylocke, and Jean Grey is still dead. All some of my favorites, I was convinced that they were going to kill Scarlet Witch instead of Hawkeye but they just made her crazy instead. Plus Wonder Woman is not dead anymore but she's blind.

All comics have really good runs and filler runs. You just have to learn to bounce around to find the best stories at the time. Marvel and DC maybe making some terds but their also making alot of great books.

[marvelboi77]

:laugh:
Yes you have alot to laugh about all your favorite characters are either dead or dismembered.... :p Thor, Odin, and isn't the fat guy from the Warriors 3 starved now.... hmmm. Thanks Avengers Disasembled.