Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens

[johnclone]

Originally Posted by Sithlord32

Heres my viewpoint in regards to those topics as I perceive it John. Please take into account I have read most of all the books and comics concerning the Sith, Darksiders and Dark Jedi.

First lets take a look at the dark side of the force its effects, abilities and the nature of it as a whole this also includes Sith sorcery which is direct manipulation of dark side energies and is also coupled with Force alchemy also known as Sith alchemy.

Time and immersion in the dark side would reveal its malevolent nature in ones physical appearance and after time also is known to go beyond cosmetic changes in such cases as Darth Nihilus and King Ommin. One could become so immersed in the Dark side that the Dark force powers would center themselves around that being creating a vortex of Dark side energies that would be ever present around them granting them immense direct access to Dark side force power given training and practice in sorcery.

That being said the power Force Masking or Force Concealment is a power that can be obtained by either Jedi or Dark side practitioners. It conceals the presence of the user from other force sensitives. Mace Windu said " I sense a plot to destroy the Jedi. The Dark Side of the Force surrounds the Chancellor." as well as "I think it is time we informed the Senate that our ability to use the Force has diminished" and Yoda said also "Blind we are, if the creation of this clone army we could not see"...and..."The Dark Side clouds everything. Impossible to see, the future is".

So they had their suspicions and could sense something but could not directly attribute it to Palpatine as a Sith lord because of his ability to conceal his Force power and the nature of the Dark side clouding the Jedi's foresight.

Palpatines motives for turning Anakin to the Dark side were based on his foresight and ability to sense the force in a being or object as he clearly stated in EP I "and you, young Skywalker; we shall watch your career with great interest." Even then he was well aware of the power Skywalker had within him and though it was never stated Palpatine most certainly was aware of the prophecy of the one who would bring balance to the force. Yoda also said in EP II "A prophecy that misread could have been". These were his motives and i believe they increased as time progressed and he started having further visions of what could or would be if Anakin was turned to the Dark side if he was indeed the one the prophecy spoke of.

To answer the second part of that question. I do not believe him turning Anakin had anything to do with his rise in power nor was he as powerful as he would ever be. He already was immersed in power he just concealed it and indeed became more powerful in the time line between EP III and EP VI.

Now to the duel between him and Mace. It was as much as a ruse as his capture with Dooku. I believe they were pretty close to equally matched in Lightsaber combat but Palpatine was holding back the whole time. If you watch the fight there is a point where Sidious has Windu at the point of his saber but doesn't kill him. Counting on the nature of the Jedi that Mace would not execute him then and there and whatever visions he had of this he also counted on Anakins arrival but not that he needed him to dispatch Windu but so he could use the situation to complete Anakins journey twords the Dark side.

Palptine stating "Power, unlimited power!" was directly coinciding with his knowledge and power of the Dark side and had nothing to do with his political standpoint. All the while his appearance was him maintaining his ruse through his Dark side abilities. Along with the force concealment through Sith sorcery and Dark side usage he was able to maintain a more human appearance and hide his disfigurement to his advantage. When he was able to reveal his true power the guise was diminished and his true form in revealed. As you can see it was not only his face that is affected but all his skin tone changed his hands are weathered and his nails are old yellow and cracked. Also IMO if you look at him in EP II he has a more aged appearance as you can see his Dark side dabblings are increasing but in EP III his appearance is a more youthful one. I think this could have been used to his advantage in his political plights buts thats just my speculation with no real evidence to back it up besides the obvious age difference in his outward appearance.

Ones appearance is not always affected by Dark side usage to extremes such as we see in Sidious either. Dooku only had the sulfuric yellow eyes in moments of extreme emotion as we also saw with Anakin in EP III. It has a direct reflection of how divulged into the Dark side one is.

"Will I eventually be physically transformed?"
"Into some aged, pale-skinned, raspy-voiced, yellow-eyed monster, you mean. Such as the one you see before you. Surely you are acquainted with the lore: King Ommin of Onderon, Darths Sion and Nihilus. But whether it will happen to you, I can't say. Know this, though, Sidious, that the power of the dark side does not debilitate the practitioner so much as it debilitates those who lack it. The power of the dark side is an illness no true Sith would ever wish to be cured of."
―Darths Sidious and Plagueis discuss the physical signs of dark side immersion.

Hayden's performance is defiantly subpar.

Thanks a whole lot for this thought provoking answer, I've actually read this several times this past weekend, each time comprehending a little more,

It's really interesting to think that Palpatine was viewing Anakin as a sort of side project- an experiment, then, but not something absolutely necessary for him to complete his scheme of destroying the Jedi or needed in battling Mace.


And so Palpatine's change in appearance was not because he was actually physically changing during the fight with Mace, but more like he was removing the disguise of a statesman and allowing his true form to be seen. As you put it "maintaining his ruse"

and then he pulled away the mask showing what was hiding behind it.

So "Power! Unlimited power!" was more like his way of saying this is my time now to show what I've always been, he'd been playing cat and mouse with Mace just so he could use that moment to manipulate Anakin, knowing that Mace the Jedi wouldn't immediately dispatch him without some explanation justifying why he was going to, thus giving Anakin his moment of opportunity to lash out at Mace.

It really is a great scene that could have been so much better if someone *George* had gotten Hayden to really feel something when he says "What have I done?". No try it again you little punk. WHAT HAVE I DONE?!?!?!?! I was reading an article recently about Martin Scorcese making Martin Sheen just about cry and hit things. Hey, whatever works!

Is it possible that Palpatine wanted Anakin as his apprentice because he did not think Anakin could ever rise up against him as so many Sith apprentices are known to have done to their masters? I like the line where Anakin tells Palpatine that he wished he could kill him right then but they both knew there was no way he could, and not just because of Padme. I think maybe Anakin was afraid to even try to stand up to his new master. Not until ROTJ did he finally fight his own fears and unleash his own anger towards the emperor. But that is one reason I didn't like the idea of the Emperor coming back after ROTJ and not really being dead, because it minimized the sacrifice of Darth Vader's life to defeat the emperor, but I guess he really did it to save his son's life, and not for his own revenge to be satisfied, so maybe that's something JJ will examine more, he certainly has a ton of interesting things to tinker around with when it comes to Luke's past, the Jedi, the Sith, the Empire, etc.

Thanks again for the response! I really enjoyed reading it.

[johnclone]

Originally Posted by Outer_Rim

- PALPATINE: Anakin! I told you it would come to this. I was right. The Jedi are taking over.

- MACE WlNDU: You old fool. The oppression of the Sith will never return. Your plot to regain control of the Republic is over . . . you have lost . . .

- PALPATINE: No! No! You will die!

To me Palpatine was going to play the "Jedi want to kill me, I am too weak" card in the very moment Anakin stepped a foot on the room. However, Mace´s words about the Sith never returning to power really pissed off Palpatine and he started to shoot lightning in pure rage. Once Windu blocked it, Palpatine realized it was a mistake, but he took advantage of the situation knowing his twisted face, resulting of absorbing so much Dark Side energy, would have a more dramatic impact on Anakin. After Anakin cut off Mace´s arm, Palpatine started again to shoot lightning as if nothing had happened and yelled his famous "power, unlimited power" to show he was not weak or tired at all.

In no way Mace can win this fight. He lost from the beginning because Palpatine had every single corner covered. For example, Anakin was there because Palpatine made sure he was going to be there. Nothing happens by accident in Star Wars. There is an old quote from Nick Gillard that says: "Sidious is the master of every weapon and style. You are a fool if you think you can beat him". Let´s say someone is as good as him with a lightsaber, then he will change weapon, style or tactics to find a way to win. No other Force user can do that, with the exception of Yoda maybe.

Now, why does Palpatine need Anakin? If Palpatine really believe the prophecy is true, there is no better way to avoid it than siding the Chosen One with the Sith. On the other hand, and as DynamicMenace said, Anakin is potentially the most powerful Force user ever born. If he is able to turn him to the Dark Side, the Sith will be unstoppable.

- YODA: At an end your rule is and not short enough it was, I must say.

- DARTH SlDIOUS: You will not stop me. Darth Vader will become more powerful than either of us.

I think that is it exactly. Palpatine was playing a chess game of manipulation and distraction, moving people around on the board purely for his own entertainment, I think and to ultimately reach his own goal of turning Anakin to the dark side. As a student of the dark side he had been very interested in the prophecy and in the possibility of changing Anakin so he would not fulfill it but instead, fulfill a new destiny, one invented by him. Of course the prophecy does eventually get fulfilled anyway.


He could have stood his own more against Mace but he allows him to disarm him, that's what I think happened after reading Sithlord's posts, it really makes sense to view it that way. Then, he needs Mace to get really angry at him, so he does the lightning bit just to piss him off and buy time, as Anakin walks in Palpatine is suddenly acting all weak and old and washed up, "help me Anakin!" when in reality, he was always in control, even to the point where he knew Anakin would turn his own lightsaber on a Jedi master, so he didn't worry about anything going wrong. I think Mace was so caught off guard and unaware of really what was happening, that he walked right into a trap.

Now, as far as hypothetically what if there were no other factors and it was just a plain fight in a bare arena between Mace and Palpatine, lightsaber to lightsaber, I don't know if we're supposed to think Mace would outskill Palpatine or not, but the Yoda vs Emperor fight, even then the Emperor is distracted by all the floaty chair things and starts toying with them and Yoda, and not really taking the fight completely seriously at that point.So did Yoda outskill him at some point, or did Palpatine just get too distracted and emotionally unhinged, not really utilizing his skills to their fullest whereas Yoda was all focused.

[johnclone]

Originally Posted by DynamicMenace

yeah im sure it might have went down something like that. after all we all know how Palpatine can foresee the future.
it very well could have been, and most likely , was part of Palpaityne's master plan.

but reason to why Palatine need Anakin. was that he knew he was the most powerful Jedi, or potentially could be. the chosen one if you will. and like the saying goes. two there always are. a master and an apprentice. but i think in this case. it was more of a, keep your friends close. but your enemies even closer. if you know what i mean.

its possible Plapatine was only playing with Mace. but i find that highly unlikely. remember. Plapatine did use his force lightning on Mace and Mace deflected it with his saber. or was absorbing it. was Palpatine playing with him? very well could have been. it did and did not seem that way. after all Mace was just about as powerful as Yoda. and we all know how that battle would have ended up if Yoda hadn't of fallen.
no doubt Yoda would have beaten him.

so i honestly think that the battle between Mace and Palpatine was genuine. and he never would have defeated Mace if it wasn't for Anakin cutting off his hand. if Anakin didn't show up in time Palpatine would have been dead. no doubt.

so reason why Palpatine needed Anakin was Palpatine's lust for power. so ti would make him more powerful than what he already was. so he could secure power over the galaxy. Palpatine doent do this without Anakin.
i could go on and on. but i think if you really think about it. in deed Palpatine is powerful as he foreseen. but not as powerful without Anakin,.for always two there are, a master and an apprentice.
for there is strength in numbers. and strength is power.

Let's assume that force lightning alone would not have been enough to defeat Mace, I can buy that, but Mace had two things against him which Palpatine knew full well, and I think we have really "nailed it" in regards to these posts.

1. He knew that Mace wouldn't just kill him without some attempt at justifying it first, because it isn't the Jedi way to kill an unarmed opponent. So he lets him "disarm" him. Now that he's disarmed, if Mace is going to kill him he'll first have to make some speech about the oppression of the Sith will never return, or whatever. You lose, etc. Just can't swing that saber right down and do it, he'd never be able to accept that he did that without first explaining it to Palpatine and himself and Anakin why it had to be done. If at all.

2. He knew that Anakin would eventually make his way over, and all he had to do was buy some time. So even though the lightning would not have been enough to defeat Mace, that was not it's purpose. It was just to stall until Anakin sees enough of Mace the big bully hurting his friend and inserts himself into the duel. And of course, it was to make Anakin think that Palpatine was dying from it's effects.

If Anakin never got there, then maybe we should assume that Mace could have held off the lightning, but indefinitely? And at full strength? Also, consider Palpatine would have just "floated" his saber back to him, we know all the force users can do that. So maybe the lightning would have bought time while Palpatine got his weapon back or even, maybe he had another saber right there in the room hidden away. But the important thing is that he KNEW that Anakin would show up, and he KNEW that Anakin would turn on Mace. He was sure of it.

Now when I watch that scene, I can totally see him allowing Mace to disarm him because that was a main part of his plan. He practically threw the saber out the window. Now I don't really know if George planned it that way or not, but I think art sometimes has the ability to surpass the intentions of the ones that created it, and that is how that scene seems to me.

[johnclone]

Everything is a trick to make Anakin believe that the Jedi are the enemy. Palpatine is positioning himself as the hero that can save Padme, and Mace is the big bully who wants to kill him without bringing him to a trial. Mace also denied the rank of master to Anakin, something he surely didn't forget. Now he has a reason to do something that he can say was noble and not just out of revenge. He did it to protect the one he loves.


Palpatine himself is pulling the strings:

"I can't hold it off"

To Anakin, the lightning is the reason why Palpatine's face is changing, and when he says "I can't hold it off" "I'm too weak" he knows Anakin is thinking that the lightning is bouncing off of the saber and back at Palpatine, hurting him, and yet he can't turn off the lightning because then Mace would surely swing and kill Palpatine,

"I have the power to save the one you love"

so Anakin must choose between letting Mace swing and losing Padme, or assist in the killing of Mace, and saving Padme.

"Anakin help!"

In the process he also gets to defend an unarmed weak old man from a younger armed man so for a brief moment he feels heroic,

Of course the irony is that once completely under the dark side's control, Anakin himself tries to kill Padme, and also that Palpatine immediately shocks Mace showing that he wasn't really weakened, so Anakin now knows that he has been duped, but the choice has been made. The power of the dark side had him, and would not let him go. Remember when Vader says to Luke "You don't know the power of the dark side, I MUST serve my master"

In the ROTJ throne room scene, when Luke finally goes for his saber, Vader is right there defending Palpatine from being struck down without skipping a beat. Palpatine knew with absolute certainty that Vader would protect him.

When Anakin leads all the troops to the Jedi temple he has no trouble at all killing dozens of Jedi, and even child Jedi by his own hand.Even though he knows the Jedi aren't taking over, the Emperor clearly is the one taking over, but at that point he is like a pawn in the Emperor's hand, he must do what he says. He has no other option. Ben tells him "Anakin, Chancellor Palpatine is evil!" He tells Ben, "From my point of view the Jedi are evil"

[Outer_Rim]

Originally Posted by DynamicMenace

hhhmm interesting.
well ill admit. my knowledge of all of this in depth information about the force is def not vast..lol
i like that you have facts to back up your statements. where as what i was stating was merely my own conception of what how it though things were. thanks for the lesson.

so even though the sith are gone. the potential of the darkside of the force will always be imminent. and the possibility of the sith to return. and things are in balance until they come along and try to take over everyone and everything.

and with everything i just read i have come to the conclusion that the balance of the force wasn't completely out of balance until the end of eps3 when the Emperor took over the senate Anakin and then in turn took over the galaxy. but yet was merely the beginning for it was only a disturbance in the force prior to?
unless im wrong and that the unbalance started during eps1

Yes, the unbalance began when Palpatine started his plot to take over the Republic. People around the universe become more and more greedy and corrupted. He even schemed a war out of nothing by spreading fear all over the galaxy and the whole Senate gave his freedom in exchange of security at the end of Episode 3. The unbalance is total when Palpatine´s empire is formed. The Empire is totally corrupted and rules the galaxy with iron hand using fear and oppression. Citizens of the empire are just slaves without hope. When Anakin breaks the chains of his Dark Side alter ego at the end of Episode 6, he doesn´t only kill Palpatine, he also kills Darth Vader, the public image of the Empire. With the oppression of the Sith gone, the galaxy is free again and that is the reason behind adding the celebration scenes across the galaxy in the OT Special Editions. The galaxy is free, yes, but there is still corrupted and greedy people like for example the hutts or loyalist to the Empire that balance the Force.

[DynamicMenace]

Originally Posted by johnclone

Let's assume that force lightning alone would not have been enough to defeat Mace, I can buy that, but Mace had two things against him which Palpatine knew full well, and I think we have really "nailed it" in regards to these posts.

1. He knew that Mace wouldn't just kill him without some attempt at justifying it first, because it isn't the Jedi way to kill an unarmed opponent. So he lets him "disarm" him. Now that he's disarmed, if Mace is going to kill him he'll first have to make some speech about the oppression of the Sith will never return, or whatever. You lose, etc. Just can't swing that saber right down and do it, he'd never be able to accept that he did that without first explaining it to Palpatine and himself and Anakin why it had to be done. If at all.

2. He knew that Anakin would eventually make his way over, and all he had to do was buy some time. So even though the lightning would not have been enough to defeat Mace, that was not it's purpose. It was just to stall until Anakin sees enough of Mace the big bully hurting his friend and inserts himself into the duel. And of course, it was to make Anakin think that Palpatine was dying from it's effects.

If Anakin never got there, then maybe we should assume that Mace could have held off the lightning, but indefinitely? And at full strength? Also, consider Palpatine would have just "floated" his saber back to him, we know all the force users can do that. So maybe the lightning would have bought time while Palpatine got his weapon back or even, maybe he had another saber right there in the room hidden away. But the important thing is that he KNEW that Anakin would show up, and he KNEW that Anakin would turn on Mace. He was sure of it.

Now when I watch that scene, I can totally see him allowing Mace to disarm him because that was a main part of his plan. He practically threw the saber out the window. Now I don't really know if George planned it that way or not, but I think art sometimes has the ability to surpass the intentions of the ones that created it, and that is how that scene seems to me.

Originally Posted by johnclone

Everything is a trick to make Anakin believe that the Jedi are the enemy. Palpatine is positioning himself as the hero that can save Padme, and Mace is the big bully who wants to kill him without bringing him to a trial. Mace also denied the rank of master to Anakin, something he surely didn't forget. Now he has a reason to do something that he can say was noble and not just out of revenge. He did it to protect the one he loves.


Palpatine himself is pulling the strings:

"I can't hold it off"

To Anakin, the lightning is the reason why Palpatine's face is changing, and when he says "I can't hold it off" "I'm too weak" he knows Anakin is thinking that the lightning is bouncing off of the saber and back at Palpatine, hurting him, and yet he can't turn off the lightning because then Mace would surely swing and kill Palpatine,

"I have the power to save the one you love"

so Anakin must choose between letting Mace swing and losing Padme, or assist in the killing of Mace, and saving Padme.

"Anakin help!"

In the process he also gets to defend an unarmed weak old man from a younger armed man so for a brief moment he feels heroic,

Of course the irony is that once completely under the dark side's control, Anakin himself tries to kill Padme, and also that Palpatine immediately shocks Mace showing that he wasn't really weakened, so Anakin now knows that he has been duped, but the choice has been made. The power of the dark side had him, and would not let him go. Remember when Vader says to Luke "You don't know the power of the dark side, I MUST serve my master"

In the ROTJ throne room scene, when Luke finally goes for his saber, Vader is right there defending Palpatine from being struck down without skipping a beat. Palpatine knew with absolute certainty that Vader would protect him.

When Anakin leads all the troops to the Jedi temple he has no trouble at all killing dozens of Jedi, and even child Jedi by his own hand.Even though he knows the Jedi aren't taking over, the Emperor clearly is the one taking over, but at that point he is like a pawn in the Emperor's hand, he must do what he says. He has no other option. Ben tells him "Anakin, Chancellor Palpatine is evil!" He tells Ben, "From my point of view the Jedi are evil"

all valid and good views. i just think Mace would have defeated him if Anakin didn't show up. after all Mace is a legendary swordsman who created a lightsaber battle style that he mastered. and is almost as powrerful if not equally as powerful in lightsaber combat as master Yoda.
and if Master Yoda could absorbe the force lightning and Mace forced it back into Palpatine revealing his tru identity. im pretty sure Mace could have done the same even if Palpaitine was using it full strength,. but how do we know he wasn't when he used it the fuirst time? he very well could have been. and when he used it the second time saying power unlimited power, how do we know it was at full strength then? after all Anakin had just cut off maces hand and disarmed him. so basically is was like shooting ducks in a barrel for Palpaitne.
but the whole speech thing of Mace im sure was just part of the script by Lucas to buy Anakin time and prolong the scene so that Anakin could defend Palpatine. after all just look how long Mace holds back his light saber..lol
im not saying it wasn't part of Palpatines plan. but i dont think that it was perfectly coordinated by Palpatine either. i honestly think he wasn't expecting Mace to be so powerful and skillfull. and what ina state of "OH SH!T!! mode when battleijg him..lol
but to think that he was just toying with Mace and could have defeated him at any given moment is foolish. and Palpatine def need Anakin to helop him defeat Mace.
now like you said. how did it all go down in Luca's eyes? after all i think the one weak aspect of ROTS was the choreography of the lightsaber scenes. specially the scenes where 4 Jedi Masters confront Palpatine and he takes them out so fast. yes i understand they were trying to portray just how powerful and dangerous he was. but the choreography could have been done so much better in a way that it would have looked more believable rather than the masters who fallen to just flail themselves about and make it look as though they completely sucked as swords men.
im sure they did not suck as bad as they were portrayed out to be with the choreography in that battle scene. just could have been much better. it kind of reminded me of a bad play you would see in a school somewhere. lol

[DynamicMenace]

Originally Posted by Outer_Rim

Yes, the unbalance began when Palpatine started his plot to take over the Republic. People around the universe become more and more greedy and corrupted. He even schemed a war out of nothing by spreading fear all over the galaxy and the whole Senate gave his freedom in exchange of security at the end of Episode 3. The unbalance is total when Palpatine´s empire is formed. The Empire is totally corrupted and rules the galaxy with iron hand using fear and oppression. Citizens of the empire are just slaves without hope. When Anakin breaks the chains of his Dark Side alter ego at the end of Episode 6, he doesn´t only kill Palpatine, he also kills Darth Vader, the public image of the Empire. With the oppression of the Sith gone, the galaxy is free again and that is the reason behind adding the celebration scenes across the galaxy in the OT Special Editions. The galaxy is free, yes, but there is still corrupted and greedy people like for example the hutts or loyalist to the Empire that balance the Force.

[nexus]

Originally Posted by DynamicMenace

after all i think the one weak aspect of ROTS was the choreography of the lightsaber scenes. specially the scenes where 4 Jedi Masters confront Palpatine and he takes them out so fast. yes i understand they were trying to portray just how powerful and dangerous he was. but the choreography could have been done so much better in a way that it would have looked more believable rather than the masters who fallen to just flail themselves about and make it look as though they completely sucked as swords men.

Surely three of the worst guys to bring along with you to a swordfight.

[metroid]

Originally Posted by nexus

Surely three of the worst guys to bring along with you to a swordfight.

Well, it wasn't a sword fight so there is no problem.

[Outer_Rim]

Under my point of view, it doesn't matter if Mace won the lightsaber duel or if Palpatine lost on purpose. Mace thinks he is fighting to save the Republic here, but the Republic is already lost. Palpatine is evil, yes, but what Mace is doing is treason under the Senate view and this makes them look like the real bad guys. He is the elected Chancellor, he got all his executive powers legally and, most important, he is a hero. This whole duel takes place because Palpatine allows it, he needs it.

This is not a fight to save the Republic, it is a fight to gain control over Anakin. Palpatine has been cooking this moment since the very beginning of the film. He let the Jedi send Anakin to spy on him so he can sown the doubt in his mind, making him believe the Jedi are the very same thing than the Sith. On the other hand, he promised Anakin the power to save Padmé to make sure he will side with him. Mace is fighting for the wrong reason and that is why he lost.