Game of Thrones Discussion - TV Series Spoilers -

[Demona]

Originally Posted by Luminous

Who said we were "outraged"? I just said we didn't want to see it. I get that kids die. Plenty have died on the show. This however involved a character we as the audience were developing a bond with. So yeah we weren't comfortable with seeing her be the victim of a sacrifice at her own father's request. We certainly didn't enjoy the scenes you just mentioned, but they were most certainly different.

Interesting you bring up Sansa's rape. Has that happened in the show before? Have we grown close to another young virgin who is a main character and was also raped? Is so I must have missed that part. Anyway, we weren't "outraged" by Sansa's scene either. Rape happens. It's unfortunate that it happened to Sansa, but we also didn't have to look away since they didn't exactly show anything. Just another thing that isn't similar at all to this scenario.

Not sure why you felt the need to mock what makes my wife and I uncomfortable. Not once did I say "they shouldn't have done that". I still think it was out of character for Stannis, and I think it was mistake in that respect, but not at the writers decision to kill a child. We PERSONALLY don't like seeing kids killed. Call us crazy, but we're not fans. However, not once did I say the show is wrong for writing kid deaths. So I am not sure what your line of questioning was trying to illustrate.

I, too, don't understand why people were so up-in-arms about those scenes with Sansa and Ramsey. And I don't mean just on here, I mean in general. Everybody knows Ramsey is the scum of the earth, demented, evil and cruel. It was no shock to me that he just raped Sansa nor made Theon watch. That is all within his character which in turn makes us pull for Sansa more and we will get more pleasure if Ramsey ever dies.

Now to answer the point of "did this happen before", yes it did. Season one -- Dany and Drogo. She wasn't in love with him and was terrified of him. Yet on their wedding night she put up a fight but Drogo went to town with Dany and she was not happy. So she was too, in fact, raped. However, some believe that is more acceptable because that is how Drogo's culture is and eventually Dany taught him to be kind and gentle. Eventually leading to love.

So two main character have been raped on screen, the question is why one was forgiven and the other is still overly criticized? IMO both were in character by those committing the rape so it's the same to me – not justifiable or excusable. GRRM does well at creating weak yet strong women. Too bad he uses rape as a motivator a lot of the time, but so be it. I enjoy the books and the show and just don't want to make light of rape and I’m so tired of it being used as a plot point for the development of female characters in media.

BTW -- did you ever get your question answered about Stannis TV show vs book? I will PM you if you want.

[gomur]

Guys, I love the discussion but let's please keep it focused on the show. I'd rather not hear what does or doesn't happen in the books.

Back to the show, I kind of see why Stannis proceeds with his daughter's sacrifice. There is no delight in what he does. You can tell he loves her tremendously and is torn. He rebuffs Melisandre on the issue several times.

However, his side is on the ropes and the "Lord of Light" has proven to be a powerful entity with palpable influence. Heck, I was ready to sign up for their cult when he brought back Beric from the dead - the soldier who gets CUT IN HALF by the Hound.

In no way do I condone what Stannis did - my stomach was in knots for poor Shireen calling for her mother and father. But I think the show did a good job showing Stannis's side of things. If he wasn't before, he's certainly shaping into a tragic figure propelled to fulfill his destiny.

[MrYac]

Originally Posted by gomur

However, his side is on the ropes and the "Lord of Light" has proven to be a powerful entity with palpable influence. Heck, I was ready to sign up for their cult when he brought back Beric from the dead - the soldier who gets CUT IN HALF by the Hound.

he'd be my god for sure, the others seem completely useless in comparison to the Red God

[Demona]

Well the old gods have a living tree dude who recruited Bran. I think they have something going in their favor. Being a warg seems like a cool opportunity.

[Thor57]

Originally Posted by Colossal

Sorry Thor but I disagree there. Burning random village kids or babies being killed by nameless soldiers is shocking of course, but this was a parent deciding to take the life of his OWN child, that's something completely different and horrific. Even his wife, who showed no love to Shereen so far and repeatedly asked for her sacrifice, crazed by Melisandre's manipulation and her stillborn children couldn't go through with it and broke down at what was happening. Cersei wouldn't even consider harming her own children, one of which she knew to be a monster, and she's on everyone's sh@t list.

I'm not sure outraged is the right word, though I could understand some book readers reacting that way. It's not just the act itself but it's now firmly removed any hope they might of had with Stannis being a hero or worthy king in the books. There's no redemption here for him now, and now no legacy to his name. He can't have any children with his wife and has no heir to his name, so even if he takes the throne, he can't keep it. His legacy is the mad king that burnt his own daughter.

I'd say it was the hardest part to watch of any season, bearing in mind the two kids burnt previously were already dead, we didn't see them die or hear them. Plus we've a connection to stannis as it seemed he was in a redemptive arc. I don't agree that this or the Sansa rape is worth turning off the show, but it is what it is, designed to shock and disturb you, to now strongly want Sansa to triumph or Stannis to fail.

Fantastic show and looking forward to next week's finale.

All fair points, but I think I disagree with all of them lol. To me, killing innocent children is killing innocent children. From the mountain killing Rhaegar's babes before the show starts, to Tywin condemning Robert's bastards, to poor Shireen being put to the fire by her father. Its all F'd up, but its the world this takes place in. Its not uncommon. I'm not surprised it was hard to watch, as it was an uncomfortable scene. And it was supposed to be. My reaction was much the same. My exact words to my wife were "Jesus......surely they arent......." My stance is against the moral high ground some of the community (not here so to speak, but the net in general) that this was somehow off limits or "to much." The show didnt cross any limits they havent in the past. When has Stannis, other than one particular scene, shown he was father of the year material? Didnt he have her locked in a tower at one point? His goal has always been the Throne, family be damned. Davos was more of a father to her than Stannis, and thats why Stannis sent him to Castle Black. He knew he'd have to kill Davos in order for the ceremony to happen.

And I dont agree with the stance that "But it was his daughter! Not his brother, not some random kingsblood, his daughter!" My exact response was, "So?" Think about all the real world people, in this plane of existence, that kill their children in order to get an inheritance from a rich husband that just died. There are real world cases of this happening, and this is a much more civilized world than Game of Thrones. Not everyone is a caring, loving parent. In 5 seasons, Stannis Baratheon has had what, 2 good guy moments that weren't self serving? Because earlier in the season he says some kind words about Ned Stark and has a moment with Shireen is supposed to erase all the scenes of him being a dickhead and religious fanatic concentrated on one thing and one thing only? I'm not buying it. Its much easier to accept if the people who use the mindset of "It was hard for me to watch as a father of a little girl" associate Stannis less with themselves, and more with someone like Casey Anthony.

[MrYac]

Originally Posted by Demona

Well the old gods have a living tree dude who recruited Bran. I think they have something going in their favor. Being a warg seems like a cool opportunity.

i don't know if the warging is directly linked to the old gods though, as far as I know they can see through the heart trees. but even if warging is part of their recruitment package i'll still take shadow assassins and resurrection

[Luminous]

Originally Posted by Thor57

I didn't mock anything.

Directing this line of questioning:

"Did you and your wife have the same outrage in the end of the very first episode at the attempted murder of a child? Did ya'll turn it off during the purging of Robert's bastards? Multiple children died then. Arya's friend getting stabbed in the throat?"

... then following that up with how you find the "outrage" over Shireen's death as "comical" certainly seems like you're mocking. What other point would you be making by listing examples of how this was nothing new for the show then saying the reactions have been "comical"?

Originally Posted by Demona

I, too, don't understand why people were so up-in-arms about those scenes with Sansa and Ramsey. And I don't mean just on here, I mean in general. Everybody knows Ramsey is the scum of the earth, demented, evil and cruel. It was no shock to me that he just raped Sansa nor made Theon watch. That is all within his character which in turn makes us pull for Sansa more and we will get more pleasure if Ramsey ever dies.

Now to answer the point of "did this happen before", yes it did. Season one -- Dany and Drogo. She wasn't in love with him and was terrified of him. Yet on their wedding night she put up a fight but Drogo went to town with Dany and she was not happy. So she was too, in fact, raped. However, some believe that is more acceptable because that is how Drogo's culture is and eventually Dany taught him to be kind and gentle. Eventually leading to love.

So two main character have been raped on screen, the question is why one was forgiven and the other is still overly criticized? IMO both were in character by those committing the rape so it's the same to me – not justifiable or excusable. GRRM does well at creating weak yet strong women. Too bad he uses rape as a motivator a lot of the time, but so be it. I enjoy the books and the show and just don't want to make light of rape and I’m so tired of it being used as a plot point for the development of female characters in media.

BTW -- did you ever get your question answered about Stannis TV show vs book? I will PM you if you want.

I thought someone would bring that scene up. I don't know, to me Sansa's scene felt different than Dany's. Keep in mind I was not surprised by either. However, Sansa's definitely felt more.... disturbing? Rape is a sensitive subject, so I won't get into details why one felt worse than the other, but I definitely think in terms of story telling one was more difficult for the audience to stomach than the other.

To answer your last question, yes someone already sent me a PM with details on Stannis' situation in the books. Thank you though.

[TheYoungWolf]

My 0.02, despite having missed the discussion. I don't think that this was out of character for Stannis. Inconsistent with what he sometimes says to himself, and to those around him? Maybe, but what one says and what one does isn't always consistent. To him, it wasn't even a decision.. Certainly doesn't make this scene any less difficult to swallow, but as far as I'm concerned, this is in line with everything he's done in the past (ie. abandoning one brother, indirectly killing the other, burning prisoners and the religious opposition, frequent use of blood magic to defeat so and so, etc.). He's an extremist and a fanatic, with a reputation for doing awful things as a means to an end. One heart-warming scene at the beginning of the season doesn't change anything.

--

Sadly enough, D&D implied during the "Inside the Episode" segment that Martin also intends to sacrifice Shireen in the novels.

Spoiler

Seeing as how she's still at Castle Black with Melisandre and Selyse, hundreds of miles away from her father, I imagine the circumstances will be a little different but I have a sneaking suspicion as to who will do it, and why.

[Bullseye]

Finally got around to watching it. Another good episode but no where near as good as some the best penultimate ones. Where is Niall Marshall?

With regards the "controversial" scenes I don't get it really. I assume the outrage for Sansa was because she started our as a child actor on the show and has grown up so people had a connection with her.

[Thor57]

Originally Posted by Luminous

Directing this line of questioning:

"Did you and your wife have the same outrage in the end of the very first episode at the attempted murder of a child? Did ya'll turn it off during the purging of Robert's bastards? Multiple children died then. Arya's friend getting stabbed in the throat?"

... then following that up with how you find the "outrage" over Shireen's death as "comical" certainly seems like you're mocking. What other point would you be making by listing examples of how this was nothing new for the show then saying the reactions have been "comical"?



I thought someone would bring that scene up. I don't know, to me Sansa's scene felt different than Dany's. Keep in mind I was not surprised by either. However, Sansa's definitely felt more.... disturbing? Rape is a sensitive subject, so I won't get into details why one felt worse than the other, but I definitely think in terms of story telling one was more difficult for the audience to stomach than the other.

To answer your last question, yes someone already sent me a PM with details on Stannis' situation in the books. Thank you though.

I took your post as your family being outraged at the scene. If that wasn't the case, okay. As for the next line, I wasn't referencing you solely. I was referring to the community in a whole. And in light of everything that this show has done in 5 years, isolating those two scenes as reasons to get upset are comical. I just don't feel someone can be okay with rape and child murder in one instance, but firmly against it later. There is no sliding scale in my opinion.

As for the difference in Sansa and Danys case, I think the reason people view it differently is two fold.

1. Drogo turned out to be a fan favorite of the season. Watching their love blossom and his badassery on display against Mogo and her brother caused people to either forget, or conviently turn a blind eye to the fact that Drogo was indeed a rapist, and a murdering Warlord.

2. Dany grew into such an emotionally strong and independent character that people again forget she was raped or just no longer care. There was a payoff for her suffering.

Sansa has had no such payoff. It may come, or it might not. Not every character in literature gets one. Sometimes, a characters role is nothing more than being the sympathetic character.