I Iz Teh Confused...

[JadeGiant]

Originally Posted by carlito1978

dont think anyone is getting ripped off here. adam doesnt do too many shows and he does even less commissions than he does shows. and people have been clamoring for a piece for him for a lot of years - he probably was amongst the first if not the first artist that had queues of people waiting to get on his list.

and if people have been waiting a long time and have the money and can get a quality piece of art where the secondary market will support the value, good luck to them.

all that said, no way that i would be able to afford $4k for a commission!

Agreed, there is no ripping off going on here. All terms are clearly disclosed and everyone that agrees to get one of these commissions knows what the agreement they are entering into. It is really a question of value and anyone who puts out the money clearly sees the value being there for them.

I am also in the camp of not being someone who will be plunking down $4K for a commission (but don’t begrudge those that do).

I am curious about your secondary market point as someone who does not follow AH art closely. Do we have examples of any of these high cost commissions being offered in the secondary market? At $400 you could clearly make profit but I am not as certain at $4K. Any examples?

[Underdog07]

Originally Posted by JadeGiant

Like nbr3 says ... because he can

Yep

Brooks could charge that as well

So could Granov and Finch

my question is why doesn't Hughes take a list of 100 people at $4k each and knock off 2 a week. That's some nice cabbage.

[Underdog07]

Originally Posted by JadeGiant

How much does a table cost at SDCC?

Tables aren't expensive. They get you with the charge for the floor beneath the table.

[nbr3bagshotrow]

Originally Posted by Underdog07

Tables aren't expensive. They get you with the charge for the floor beneath the table.

LOL

[carlito1978]

there were about 3 hughes commissions that were on the latest clink auction. all 3 were C and D level characters - one was Ursula from little mermaid, the other Starfire from teen titans, and maybe the third was Wasp. I didn't see what the wasp or ursula went for, but the Starfire went for $3.9k. And that's for a starfire piece!

[JadeGiant]

Originally Posted by carlito1978

there were about 3 hughes commissions that were on the latest clink auction. all 3 were C and D level characters - one was Ursula from little mermaid, the other Starfire from teen titans, and maybe the third was Wasp. I didn't see what the wasp or ursula went for, but the Starfire went for $3.9k. And that's for a starfire piece!

Thanks - good reference

[bnmauney]

My biggest issue with the way that Adam and Allison conduct business now is that they basically rely on a core group of fans with deep pockets who they know are willing to pay these, IMHO, outrageous prices. It's literally the same people getting all of his commissions and premium art. It's been that way for years. Back when they were doing the cherry picking method, the people who had already gotten their Catwoman and Wonder Woman pieces were able to ask for more obscure characters or characters that they knew Adam would have more interest in drawing. Thus, they would get picked more often than others and wind up with some of the better pieces. These same people also tend to win most of his pre-order auctions.

Honestly, I hate to say this, but I kind of feel like a lot of what's wrong with commission collecting was spearheaded by them. As far back as I can remember, they've always had some of the more expensive commission prices. Whenever they would raise them, it wasn't long before many other artists would raise theirs. This has led to many artists now, IMHO, overcharging for their commissions. It boggles my mind that any artist, no matter their status in the industry, would charge $500 or more for a piece done at a show. There are even many artists who are starting to charge more for their commissions than they do for their more premium art such as covers and splashes. As we all know, commissions simply do not hold up their value on the secondary market, though there are obviously exceptions.

That brings me to Adam's and Allison's supposed fight against flippers. They've been ranting and raving about it for years. My question is: Then why do they continue to regularly sell their wares to well-known flippers if they have such a big problem with it?? I've seen them do it many times at Heroes. Yet they've continually used flippers as an excuse for raising their rates. Then, it was their excuse for Adam no longer doing commissions. Now, it's the excuse they use for the exorbitant costs of their pre-order auctions. However, when you look at it, there's a correlation between their prices going up and the number of commissions going down. I mean, they're not dummies. They know that they can milk his core audience for everything they're worth, and because of that Adam can get by with doing less work. If I could get $4K a pop for commissions, then I'd certainly be pumping them out as fast as I could. I'm sure that an increased supply would eventually decrease the demand and drive the prices back down, but I'm sure y'all get the point. However, by keeping the supply down to a minimum, IMHO, they've created an inflated sense of exclusivity amongst collectors and driven the prices to ridiculous levels.

Speaking of, it was Adam's lavish pieces that he would do for the annual Heroes auctions that made it such an exclusive event for high-end art collectors. IMHO, it's become a status thing. That's why they keep bidding against each other like they do. I still remember when it wasn't the norm for pieces to go in the $5K-$10K range. Also, don't even get me started on the smoking jacket crew! While it can be entertaining at times, the auctions have gotten to the point where they just aren't for the "little guys" anymore.

Now, please bear in mind that all of the above is simply my opinion based on years of watching how Adam and Allison conducted themselves at Heroes. I've never had any personal issues with them, and I certainly don't have any axes to grind. As a matter of fact, while I think Adam's an extraordinary artist, I've never even attempted to get anything from him. That's been partially by choice and partially because, as someone else has already stated, what he's known for isn't really what I collect.

/end rant

Lol.

[Bishop40]

Originally Posted by carlito1978

there were about 3 hughes commissions that were on the latest clink auction. all 3 were C and D level characters - one was Ursula from little mermaid, the other Starfire from teen titans, and maybe the third was Wasp. I didn't see what the wasp or ursula went for, but the Starfire went for $3.9k. And that's for a starfire piece!

But i really liked that starfire!

[carlito1978]

Originally Posted by Bishop40

But i really liked that starfire!

haha. you and a few others!

[JadeGiant]

Originally Posted by bnmauney

My biggest issue with the way that Adam and Allison conduct business now is that they basically rely on a core group of fans with deep pockets who they know are willing to pay these, IMHO, outrageous prices. It's literally the same people getting all of his commissions and premium art. It's been that way for years. Back when they were doing the cherry picking method, the people who had already gotten their Catwoman and Wonder Woman pieces were able to ask for more obscure characters or characters that they knew Adam would have more interest in drawing. Thus, they would get picked more often than others and wind up with some of the better pieces. These same people also tend to win most of his pre-order auctions.

Honestly, I hate to say this, but I kind of feel like a lot of what's wrong with commission collecting was spearheaded by them. As far back as I can remember, they've always had some of the more expensive commission prices. Whenever they would raise them, it wasn't long before many other artists would raise theirs. This has led to many artists now, IMHO, overcharging for their commissions. It boggles my mind that any artist, no matter their status in the industry, would charge $500 or more for a piece done at a show. There are even many artists who are starting to charge more for their commissions than they do for their more premium art such as covers and splashes. As we all know, commissions simply do not hold up their value on the secondary market, though there are obviously exceptions.

That brings me to Adam's and Allison's supposed fight against flippers. They've been ranting and raving about it for years. My question is: Then why do they continue to regularly sell their wares to well-known flippers if they have such a big problem with it?? I've seen them do it many times at Heroes. Yet they've continually used flippers as an excuse for raising their rates. Then, it was their excuse for Adam no longer doing commissions. Now, it's the excuse they use for the exorbitant costs of their pre-order auctions. However, when you look at it, there's a correlation between their prices going up and the number of commissions going down. I mean, they're not dummies. They know that they can milk his core audience for everything they're worth, and because of that Adam can get by with doing less work. If I could get $4K a pop for commissions, then I'd certainly be pumping them out as fast as I could. I'm sure that an increased supply would eventually decrease the demand and drive the prices back down, but I'm sure y'all get the point. However, by keeping the supply down to a minimum, IMHO, they've created an inflated sense of exclusivity amongst collectors and driven the prices to ridiculous levels.

Speaking of, it was Adam's lavish pieces that he would do for the annual Heroes auctions that made it such an exclusive event for high-end art collectors. IMHO, it's become a status thing. That's why they keep bidding against each other like they do. I still remember when it wasn't the norm for pieces to go in the $5K-$10K range. Also, don't even get me started on the smoking jacket crew! While it can be entertaining at times, the auctions have gotten to the point where they just aren't for the "little guys" anymore.

Now, please bear in mind that all of the above is simply my opinion based on years of watching how Adam and Allison conducted themselves at Heroes. I've never had any personal issues with them, and I certainly don't have any axes to grind. As a matter of fact, while I think Adam's an extraordinary artist, I've never even attempted to get anything from him. That's been partially by choice and partially because, as someone else has already stated, what he's known for isn't really what I collect.

/end rant

Lol.

Good post. You make some good points worth considering. I think the whole AH commission topic is very intriguing. I don’t collect his art but I know that he a lightning rod on controversy and I do love commissions so your thoughts on that topic have me thinking.

As to the core group notion – I have no idea. You are from NC so you obviously have a lot more tribal knowledge about the Heroes show. I really didn’t start attending Heroes until after the commission approach switch for Adam so I haven’t really hung out at his table and don’t have a clue who ends up getting his commissions. If I really wanted an AH piece and were willing to pay the price, I would figure out what I had to do to crack into the group for a spot on the list. Doesn’t he eBay the pre-con pieces? If so, it is just a matter of paying the piper, right? I know that artists like to take care of fans that they enjoy working with (and in Adam’s case he knows won’t flip). From Adam’s perspective, I imagine that he likes working with those that will pay the price and keep the art (I think the price factor far outweighs the other). Again, if he does eBay it is out of his control. I know there are a core group of Adam’s fans and I am sure they will find a way to get his art – that’s just how it works.

As for prices, outrageous is a matter of perspective and opinion. Personally, I agree that $4K is WAY more than I would pay for any commission (I play in the more shallow end of the pool). However, it seems that are is no lack of people that are willing to drop 2/3/4K like I am willing to drop 200/300/400 dollars which shows how relative pricing is in this hobby. I think that most people that are spending at this level tend to keep his art so maybe he accomplished his anti-flipping goal with the price hike. From an objective standpoint, if an obscure character recently sold at nearly $4K I would have to think that his pricing might be on point in terms of his commission retaining value (which we know is not the norm in the hobby). And who knows, maybe the flippers are still sniffing around – you might be able to find a character that is in high demand, aligns with a major movie release, that Adam would draw and you could flip for profit (ScarJo Black Widow perhaps). At any rate, I don’t see you losing your shirt on an AH piece if you do a pre-con commission as I am sure Adam puts a lot into the piece. I would love to see more sales examples (what was paid and then resold for).

Commission trend – you might be right about AH being part of the reason for the trend in increasing costs for commissions. As the highest profile artist in the category, this is to be expected and other artists are bound to take notice on what happens/happened with him. I think it is only part of the equation and I think we would probably be where we are with or without AH (he probably just helped it along). You are always going to have artists trying to squeeze every penny out of their sales, just like you have others that go the other way (Barry Kitson comes to mind). To say that AH is everything that is wrong with commissions (you didn’t say that but I have heard it) is extreme IMHO and not really fair. Mark Brooks probably could charge more but it is appreciated that he doesn’t. When I am at a show with both of them, I make far more stops at his table than Adam’s to see what he is doing.

Heroes auction / Smoking jacket crew / status – totally agree. Not my thing, I am there about the art and that’s it. Each to their own. I would never pay more for something than what it is worth to me – status plays no part in my evaluation of art (but it obviously does to many people).

Fight against flippers – love this topic and I tend to think this is more of an excuse than anything else. I found them using the flippers as the impetus for changing pricing to be a slap in the face to the majority of collectors out there IMHO. Sure, a few of his pieces showed up on eBay when he was charging the lower rate but the vast majority are still on his fan’s walls and portfolios and are probably the first pieces shared/bragged about when showing off the collection. It just seemed that he was more pissed about a few bad apples every year that profited from his work than he was happy to see all his fans getting the art. You can’t make fans happy by selling art at below market rate (which is what allowed most of his fans to have his art) without having a few pieces leak out into the secondary market (comic art monster comes to mind here). It seems to me that the change was coming and this was the final straw but not the biggest factor. When he was doing the cheaper pieces, he busted his butt and cranked out a lot of quality art over a weekend. I am sure that took a toll and wore on them. At some point I am sure the discussion with Allison went something like this: I can 20 pieces at a show for X amount or I can do 2 pieces for the same amount. That is a compelling argument and one that I can’t blame him for considering. Same money, a lot less work, and probably makes for a lot better con weekend experience (and no stress about flipping). I don’t have a problem with the switch and would have found it much more palatable if the flipping wasn’t used as the reason. This is all speculation on my part – I am sure there is a lot more that goes into it but that’s my perspective.

Good stuff