Black Panther - SPOILERS

[MrJones]

Ok so I've had some more time to think about this movie, as well as having some (surprisingly) good discussion on facebook about my initial review (I left the exact same on here a few pages back).

So I will try to articulate this as best as I can but you know text goes - a lot is missed when compared to actual conversation.

I was initially disappointed at the social aspects of this movie. This is something that I've found frustrating in the last few years too and I haven't been able to figure out exactly why - something I'm still thinking about. I don't know if I'm more frustrated with social justice aspects because I feel they are more than often forced upon people, or the fact that I notice them at all. For example, the entire main cast of Rogue One is either a minority or female (or robot lol). The cast was amazing and I LOVE the movie. BUT I was frustrated I EVEN REALIZED this casting because of the people who cry social justice at every opportunity have made it impossible to NOT see it. But that is getting away from Black Panther.

I've decided I had wrong expectations going into the movie. I admittedly know nothing about the source material comics, and while I can obviously put together the implications for a character named Black Panther, I did not think the movie would be presented as such. I expected "just another" Disney/Marvel movie, which for the most part I have not found to be overly political in their presentations. I don't think I was wrong to expect another "dumb" super hero movie... I mean I've been conditioned with like 20 movies at this point, but I should have still went in expecting something different.

I have a couple criticisms still, despite realizing my reaction is my own fault. For me there were two main storylines: 1 was the aspect dealing with people of colour, their struggles, colonialism etc. and 2 was the family aspect dealing with BP's father and uncle having a tragic past. I feel storyline 1 was treated as the main story, while the family aspect was almost an after thought. This should have been reversed. Everyone has family drama or troubles and it would have been more relateable for everyone. I was very interested in the family tragedy but there were really only 2 small scenes and a couple lines of dialogue dealing with it. Another criticism is making Killmonger a martyr at the end. He was an awesome villain. Key word villain. His motives were deplorable and he was ruthless. Basically trying to kill everyone he met. Yet at the end they give him a hero's death in front of the sunset while talking about going out like his ancestors or something. People cheered for this, and I'm sure that was the point, but I think it was a bad point. Maybe it was to humanize BP more as he was showing some mercy? Finally, the first end credit scene REALLY should have been before the credits rolled. It was a beautiful speech and tied together all the positive messages of the movie. It brought it together and reinforced that we should not be divided. Yet 1/2 the theatre was empty when I saw it. It was perhaps the most important scene in the movie if you are going to have these political messages - yet they don't include it. That was SUCH an error in my opinion.

So I still liked it. Walking out of the theatre I would have ranked it as my least fav marvel movie but that was because I went into it all wrong. When it comes out on Blu-ray I'll buy it and watch it again and expect to like it A LOT more now that I know the type of movie it is.

NOW BRING ON THE PURPLE ALIEN WITH MAGIC SPACE ROCKS

[Gothamite]

Originally Posted by Demona

It may have out grossed Captain America: Winter Soldier, but IMO, that movie is still the best of the MCU. Easily a 10/10 for me.

I really detested the rapid editing in that movie. Mercifully, the Russos eased up for Cap 3.

[ParisDean]

Originally Posted by MrJones

Ok so I've had some more time to think about this movie, as well as having some (surprisingly) good discussion on facebook about my initial review (I left the exact same on here a few pages back).

So I will try to articulate this as best as I can but you know text goes - a lot is missed when compared to actual conversation.

I was initially disappointed at the social aspects of this movie. This is something that I've found frustrating in the last few years too and I haven't been able to figure out exactly why - something I'm still thinking about. I don't know if I'm more frustrated with social justice aspects because I feel they are more than often forced upon people, or the fact that I notice them at all. For example, the entire main cast of Rogue One is either a minority or female (or robot lol). The cast was amazing and I LOVE the movie. BUT I was frustrated I EVEN REALIZED this casting because of the people who cry social justice at every opportunity have made it impossible to NOT see it. But that is getting away from Black Panther.

I've decided I had wrong expectations going into the movie. I admittedly know nothing about the source material comics, and while I can obviously put together the implications for a character named Black Panther, I did not think the movie would be presented as such. I expected "just another" Disney/Marvel movie, which for the most part I have not found to be overly political in their presentations. I don't think I was wrong to expect another "dumb" super hero movie... I mean I've been conditioned with like 20 movies at this point, but I should have still went in expecting something different.

I have a couple criticisms still, despite realizing my reaction is my own fault. For me there were two main storylines: 1 was the aspect dealing with people of colour, their struggles, colonialism etc. and 2 was the family aspect dealing with BP's father and uncle having a tragic past. I feel storyline 1 was treated as the main story, while the family aspect was almost an after thought. This should have been reversed. Everyone has family drama or troubles and it would have been more relateable for everyone. I was very interested in the family tragedy but there were really only 2 small scenes and a couple lines of dialogue dealing with it. Another criticism is making Killmonger a martyr at the end. He was an awesome villain. Key word villain. His motives were deplorable and he was ruthless. Basically trying to kill everyone he met. Yet at the end they give him a hero's death in front of the sunset while talking about going out like his ancestors or something. People cheered for this, and I'm sure that was the point, but I think it was a bad point. Maybe it was to humanize BP more as he was showing some mercy? Finally, the first end credit scene REALLY should have been before the credits rolled. It was a beautiful speech and tied together all the positive messages of the movie. It brought it together and reinforced that we should not be divided. Yet 1/2 the theatre was empty when I saw it. It was perhaps the most important scene in the movie if you are going to have these political messages - yet they don't include it. That was SUCH an error in my opinion.

So I still liked it. Walking out of the theatre I would have ranked it as my least fav marvel movie but that was because I went into it all wrong. When it comes out on Blu-ray I'll buy it and watch it again and expect to like it A LOT more now that I know the type of movie it is.

NOW BRING ON THE PURPLE ALIEN WITH MAGIC SPACE ROCKS

I don't believe it's necessarily true that focusing more on the family dynamic in Black Panther to make it more relatable would improve the film. But I do remember you're the same person who can't relate to and therefore won't read any comic where the main character is outside your specific demographic so I see why you'd think that.

Killmonger's methods were deplorable, not his motives.

Not one person in the sold out IMAX showing I attended left before the second post-credits scene--the first time I can recall seeing that happening.

[MrJones]

Originally Posted by ParisDean

I don't believe it's necessarily true that focusing more on the family dynamic in Black Panther to make it more relatable would improve the film. But I do remember you're the same person who can't relate to and therefore won't read any comic where the main character is outside your specific demographic so I see why you'd think that.

Killmonger's methods were deplorable, not his motives.

Not one person in the sold out IMAX showing I attended left before the second post-credits scene--the first time I can recall seeing that happening.

Ah Paris Dean, out of all my posts being as respectful as possible, that is the one that stands out to you.

To your first point, you very well may be right. I already conceded I went into the movie all wrong. That was just one of the things I would have found to be a more interesting narrative, but I'm drawn to more family oriented stories because yes, they are more universally relatable.

Why don't you think Killmonger's motives were deplorable?

That is great everyone in your theatre stayed for moth post credit scenes. They got the best message of the movie. That didn't happen with every theatre. I was in one where that didn't happen.

[Gothamite]

Originally Posted by MrJones

To your first point, you very well may be right. I already conceded I went into the movie all wrong. That was just one of the things I would have found to be a more interesting narrative, but I'm drawn to more family oriented stories because yes, they are more universally relatable.

Why don't you think Killmonger's motives were deplorable?

As I read your other post from today, I started smiling and felt very happy that you were able to find another way to approach the movie.

With regards to what should be the "A" story and "B" story in a movie, that is a matter of personal preference. This particular movie's "A" and "B" stories both addressed the same geopolitical themes, which I felt made it more substantive and involving than any Marvel movie since the first Iron Man.

I personally like the type of antagonist that Killmonger is, someone who has realistic motivations and goals. I think villains who just want to destroy things are stupid. (What is the point of destroying everything? If you win, there's nothing left! What would you rule -- piles of rubble?) Indeed, I accepted Killmonger's arguments as valid, just not the conclusions that he drew with regards to how to deal with historical injustice.

[MrJones]

Originally Posted by Gothamite

As I read your other post from today, I started smiling and felt very happy that you were able to find another way to approach the movie.

With regards to what should be the "A" story and "B" story in a movie, that is a matter of personal preference. This particular movie's "A" and "B" stories both addressed the same geopolitical themes, which I felt made it more substantive and involving than any Marvel movie since the first Iron Man.

I personally like the type of antagonist that Killmonger is, someone who has realistic motivations and goals. I think villains who just want to destroy things are stupid. (What is the point of destroying everything? If you win, there's nothing left! What would you rule -- piles of rubble?) Indeed, I accepted Killmonger's arguments as valid, just not the conclusions that he drew with regards to how to deal with historical injustice.

Well thank you for reading it and understanding where I'm trying to come from. I too am happy I have been able to at least address my own root cause for the original frustration I felt. I really think it's important for people to take a step back and be truthful instead of doubling down on a certain thought or emotion. Now more than ever.

The story for "A" and "B" you could be absolutely right. Maybe it's just personal preference so I'm choosing to like the family narrative more? I don't know.... either way, I think it should have played a more important role. They should have dug a little deeper in that part of the story.

Killmonger is a great villain. I think this is one of the harder points I have explaining how I feel. The way they portrayed him I have a feeling is going to result in more people cheering for him than wishing for his failures. Which I don't think is a good thing. Does that make sense?

[Gothamite]

Originally Posted by MrJones

Killmonger is a great villain. I think this is one of the harder points I have explaining how I feel. The way they portrayed him I have a feeling is going to result in more people cheering for him than wishing for his failures. Which I don't think is a good thing. Does that make sense?

Ah, yes, thanks for the clarification. It does make sense. What you wrote reminded me of how people reacted to the depiction of Hitler in a German movie called "The Underground". They didn't like how it humanized him. The pushback to that reaction is that Hitler was a human being. I understand wanting to think of Hitler as a monster, but he wasn't a boogeyman. He was flesh and blood, just like the rest of us.

The same applies to other movie villains. Nowadays, I basically avoid movies where the villain is a Thanos or Sauron. Those types are boring. A Killmonger is dimensional and realized.

[ParisDean]

Originally Posted by MrJones

Well thank you for reading it and understanding where I'm trying to come from. I too am happy I have been able to at least address my own root cause for the original frustration I felt. I really think it's important for people to take a step back and be truthful instead of doubling down on a certain thought or emotion. Now more than ever.

The story for "A" and "B" you could be absolutely right. Maybe it's just personal preference so I'm choosing to like the family narrative more? I don't know.... either way, I think it should have played a more important role. They should have dug a little deeper in that part of the story.

Killmonger is a great villain. I think this is one of the harder points I have explaining how I feel. The way they portrayed him I have a feeling is going to result in more people cheering for him than wishing for his failures. Which I don't think is a good thing. Does that make sense?

I would think any cheers at the end of the movie were for Killmonger's great exit line and not the man himself.

[Meteor Man]

Originally Posted by Demona

It may have out grossed Captain America: Winter Soldier, but IMO, that movie is still the best of the MCU. Easily a 10/10 for me.

I agree with your assessment.

[JP Sarri]

The great thing about art is that it represents different things to different people. Art evokes different emotions and different feelings. Movies are works of art. Words, images, sounds, all combined into one.

I love the MCU. I love it because it has brought something for everyone. Aside from some minor criticism, each movie touches a different subject and explores new ground. Some times the attempts fall short. Some times they hit the target; and when they do, they do a heck of a job.

Last night I was having a fun conversation with my wife. We are both Marvel fans. We were grading each movie from best to worst. Although my favorite is the Avengers, we agreed that Winter Soldier is the better film all around. Action, espionage, political intrigue and drama in a wholesome package. However, I came to the personal conclusion that Black Panther is the most mature in tone, message and execution of them all. Let me explain my claim further.

My favorite scene, the one that brought it home for me, was the scene where Killmonger visits the astral plane. He is back in the apartment where his father was killed. He finds his father who asks him, "are there any tears for me?". Killmonger sitting on the floor sadly looks down and replies "everyone dies". A conversation ensues where the father expresses his regret of trying to save the world while loosing his son. He realizes then the impact of his choices upon his child. This was a powerful moment! Michael B. Jordan was masterful in it. Such a great actor! The scene sits opposite to the scene where T'Challa meets his father King T'Chaka in the spiritual world. While T'Challa shows great admiration, love and respect for his father, Killmonger has a hard time opening his heart to his own dad. He is full of anger and full of pain. Although a man, he acts like a child who feels abandoned and betrayed. A child who seeks vengeance and retribution for the suffering he has experienced. A child who hides behind an excuse of social justice. In my opinion, this is the most important aspect of the film. This is the driven plot over any other. Yes, the movie tackles important subjects like the refugee crisis and the policies of isolationism around the globe, but it goes beyond that. It centers its sight on the root of the problems. It expresses the idea that a fatherless society or a society without proper father figures is doomed to fail.

When you look at the world today, you can see the reality of this. Indoctrination of children by extremist groups, mass shootings carried out by kids, the rise of gang violence. All of these have a common denominator. Societies in their pursuit of a better life, have forgotten and minimized the importance of fathers at home. There are broken families everywhere. Also, men do not know how to be men anymore. We assume that our responsibility is only to provide and to protect. We spend countless hours working and we leave women with the responsibility of raising our kids. We make promises we cannot keep, and we withhold information our children need to hear. As a father, I can totally relate. Like King T'Chaka I have made decision to protect my family from harm. Some of those decisions were poorly conceived and have backfired on me. But in the end, it is better to be there than not being there at all. Like King T'Chaka said to his son; "it is hard for a good man to be a king". The question is; do I want to be a better king or do I want to be a better man? This is a deep question but one that needs an answer.

This is what makes this film so great. Yes, we can argue the political points but the importance of the message is undeniable. I leave it for you to decide.