The Exorcist - Have you ever sculpted this.

[Makkari1]

Originally Posted by TNovak

Suicide is usually a biproduct of severe depression. The so called "possessed" people usually exhibit the characteristics of claiming to have some demon inside them or cursing god or whatever along with physical gyrations of some sort. I've never heard of one even wanting to commit suicide, let alone attempting it.

If I were a demon and wanted to inflict death and misery, I would make the person kill others or poison water supplies or something. I'm not trying to be argumentative, but it just doesn't make sense to me.

Problem is you are not the Demon and you have no idea what their agenda is. Whether they are able to get someone to take out restaurant full of people or torment some poor kid tell's he jumps off a roof the bottom they are causing misery and suffering.

[TNovak]

Originally Posted by Makkari1

Problem is you are not the Demon and you have no idea what their agenda is. Whether they are able to get someone to take out restaurant full of people or torment some poor kid tell's he jumps off a roof the bottom they are causing misery and suffering.

Again I'm not trying to offend anyone, but even the most ardent believers in demonic possession (Jesuits, Catholic Church, etc) has any suspicion or makes any statement that they think these types of things are at all related to demonic possession. And if they were, wouldn't that defeat the whole purpose of most religions? If the bad/evil that was done was not done by the free will of individuals but while under the control of demons, then how could repentance and forgiveness be warranted? If "the devil made me do it" was viable, then how could anyone be responsible for their actions, especially the most awful ones?

[William Paquet]

Originally Posted by TNovak

If "the devil made me do it" was viable, then how could anyone be responsible for their actions, especially the most awful ones?

Hate to sound like I'm talking out of two sides of my stupid head, but I think you are making the assumption that possession is impossible because we have free will.

From my understanding, the possessed is no longer in control of their will, and thereby the "sins" they may engage in are not sins, insofar as the power of the demon overtaking the spirit of the possessed. Also I think it is people who are either young, or under stress, and thereby spiritually weakened that allow the possession. I'm not claiming belief or disbelief in any of it, just making the case as I understand it. I find the subject fascinating, especially when looked at from both spiritual and mental health aspects.

I don't think anything you have said thus far has been even remotely offensive. I myself am enjoying the discussion.

[TNovak]

Originally Posted by William Paquet

I think you are making the assumption that possession is impossible because we have free will.

I'm not saying that's why I don't believe in demonic posession or even that its impossible. I was saying that the types of possession that the various churches recognize are of the spitting, gyrating, cursing god, and speaking in other langueages by individuals variety such as those chroniciled in the story that was eventually adapted into "The Exorcist". My point was that what would be the point for a demon to possess someone just so he could spit at people and swear at them in Latin? In these accepted versions of possession, that is about all they really do. The individual is often tormented, true, but after the exorcism often have no recollection of the possession, so how tormented are even they really?

RE the other discussion those types of things were brought up by others as possible examples of demonic possession, but my point with that is those aren't recognized by any organized religions (that I am aware of) as results of demonic possession, but invariably the result of some grudge or ax to grind leading to horrible acts.

There was an interesting movie once though with Lou Diamond Phillips called "The First Power" that did a similar take on this. I actually thought it was pretty good. The demon could possess about anyone and do horrible things and even supernatural things. It was creepy when he possessed a nun toward the end.

[William Paquet]

Originally Posted by TNovak

I'm not saying that's why I don't believe in demonic posession or even that its impossible. I was saying that the types of possession that the various churches recognize are of the spitting, gyrating, cursing god, and speaking in other langueages by individuals variety such as those chroniciled in the story that was eventually adapted into "The Exorcist". My point was that what would be the point for a demon to possess someone just so he could spit at people and swear at them in Latin? In these accepted versions of possession, that is about all they really do. The individual is often tormented, true, but after the exorcism often have no recollection of the possession, so how tormented are even they really?

Ahh, grasshopper-

Go back and watch THE EXORCIST documentary that is on the flip side of the DVD. There is a brief snippet of dialog that was cut from the final film, during the break in the exorcism when they leave the room and are sittting on the stairs. Fathers Karras and Merrin talk about this. Karras asks, "why her(Regan)?", and Merrin replies "maybe to make us despair"

In other words, that the object of possession may not even be the target of the evil, but rather how that evil affects the spirtit of those with which it comes into contact.

Look at the ripple effect in the film. All the friends, the mother, etc. It goes far beyond the possession of Regan.

[TNovak]

Here is a link to the movie trailer for "The First Power" if you've never heard of it


http://www.videodetective.com/titled...blishedid=1084

[William Paquet]

Originally Posted by TNovak

Here is a link to the movie trailer for "The First Power" if you've never heard of it


http://www.videodetective.com/titled...blishedid=1084

I have heard of it but I don't think I've ever seen it.

[rilynil]

Originally Posted by William Paquet

Ahh, grasshopper-

Go back and watch THE EXORCIST documentary that is on the flip side of the DVD. There is a brief snippet of dialog that was cut from the final film, during the break in the exorcism when they leave the room and are sittting on the stairs. Fathers Karras and Merrin talk about this. Karras asks, "why her(Regan)?", and Merrin replies "maybe to make us despair"

In other words, that the object of possession may not even be the target of the evil, but rather how that evil affects the spirtit of those with which it comes into contact.

Look at the ripple effect in the film. All the friends, the mother, etc. It goes far beyond the possession of Regan.

Great, great post.

[Makkari1]

Originally Posted by TNovak

Again I'm not trying to offend anyone, but even the most ardent believers in demonic possession (Jesuits, Catholic Church, etc) has any suspicion or makes any statement that they think these types of things are at all related to demonic possession. And if they were, wouldn't that defeat the whole purpose of most religions? If the bad/evil that was done was not done by the free will of individuals but while under the control of demons, then how could repentance and forgiveness be warranted? If "the devil made me do it" was viable, then how could anyone be responsible for their actions, especially the most awful ones?

You must understand that God is extremely forgiving and goes out of his way to save lost souls, but God leaves every man, woman and child's free will intact. He never forces his will upon you. Thus God could not or would not possess a person and he only wants those who willingly come to him.

Satan on the other hand uses what God won't and that is possession and force. Let me clearify that by saying their are two types of possesion. There is oppression and possession. Oppression is like Job in the bible. Job was not possessed but oppressed meaning that he had complete control of his will power but Satan was allowed to torment Job due to the test that he was being put through. Possessed people have no control and have given Satan control of their lives. How is this done? Oh lots of ways:

1.) Actions (willful sinful deeds over and over again with no atempt to ask God for help)
2.) Trauma (extreme pain, tradgety, loss of a loved drive people to do crazy things, etc.)
3.) Heredity (Sins and actions of the parents passed to the children) (yes parents its that important to be good to your kids.)

Please note that most possessions are not violent. Some people can be possessed by different demon types. ie: some people can't stop stealing, or doing drugs, etc.) They have no will power to stop doing what they are doing and they know it.

The violent stuff is the extreme cases of the worst sort. These devils are there to cause misery and ultimately destruction, (thus depression and suicide). True possession is all about freemdom of the will. When a person gives in to evil urges it makes easier for the devils to move in and set up shop. Bottom line is that God has power over all of this and offers it freely. You may not believe in God because of whatever reason but I do and I've seen his power reverse this stuff where drugs or mental therapy utterly failed.

[Makkari1]

Originally Posted by William Paquet

Ahh, grasshopper-

Go back and watch THE EXORCIST documentary that is on the flip side of the DVD. There is a brief snippet of dialog that was cut from the final film, during the break in the exorcism when they leave the room and are sittting on the stairs. Fathers Karras and Merrin talk about this. Karras asks, "why her(Regan)?", and Merrin replies "maybe to make us despair"

In other words, that the object of possession may not even be the target of the evil, but rather how that evil affects the spirtit of those with which it comes into contact.

Look at the ripple effect in the film. All the friends, the mother, etc. It goes far beyond the possession of Regan.

What I've been saying. The Demons not only target the guilty but the innocent to make you despair and loose hope. They are not there to encourage you but the break you down into despair. If you think 911 was done for kicks you are wrong. These terrorist are possessed with a blood lust and fanaticsm that is very demonic and they target the weak and innocent because it causes the most despair. If the terrorist drove the planes into a prison filled with murderers then the outcry would be so different.