Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi *spoilers start at post 353*

[Hanky Panky]

Originally Posted by Luminous

The guy has the briefest of momentary weakness and it's somehow justification for the OT purists to spawn a million internet memes.

Originally Posted by Hellboy

More like a massive oversimplification.

Yes and no.

If you reflect on Luke's relationship with Vader, it was not nearly as personal in terms of screen time as let's say Ben Solo.

We don't know for sure the amount of time he trained Ben but having this dark vision and stark realization of Snoke's influence foreshadowing a Dark Side conversion seems incongruous with how Luke seemed to always give Vader the benefit of the doubt, despite the Emperor being a few feet away during the climatic duel on the Death Star. Luke was still willing to toss aside his lightsaber.

Again, let's chalk it up to his vanity as being a "Master Jedi" as the hazy moment of weakness.

Jedi-in-training Luke seemed to never demonstrate this in the OT, in terms of his nature to kill or dispatch.

[Hellboy]

I don’t know why it’s so hard for some of you to accept that Luke, in a moment of weakness, did something that was out of character and as such paid a heavy price. This kind of thing happens in everyday life all the time. Much like his father before him his faith was challenged and he lost his way, but in the end found redemption. Just because one doesn’t like how events unfolded doesn’t mean they aren’t plausible.

[JP Sarri]

Originally Posted by Hellboy

I don’t know why it’s so hard for some of you to accept that Luke, in a moment of weakness, did something that was out of character and as such paid a heavy price. This kind of thing happens in everyday life all the time. Much like his father before him his faith was challenged and he lost his way, but in the end found redemption. Just because one doesn’t like how events unfolded doesn’t mean they aren’t plausible.

Characters grounded in reality have a long lasting appeal. At least for me. True heroes are common day joes making life turning decisions even after catastrophic failures. Perfect and flawless messianic figures are truly unrelatable.

[T.MAC]

I don’t know why it’s so hard for some of you to accept that a director, in trying to put his own stamp on a movie, failed miserably and ruined a beloved character. This kind of thing happens in everyday life all the time. Much like many directors before him who wanted to try to stand out, attempted and failed. Just because one doesn’t like when others' easily shine a spotlight on the director's failure, doesn't mean the colossal failure isn't plausible.

[JP Sarri]

Originally Posted by T.MAC

I don’t know why it’s so hard for some of you to accept that a director, in trying to put his own stamp on a movie, failed miserably and ruined a beloved character. This kind of thing happens in everyday life all the time. Much like many directors before him who wanted to try to stand out, attempted and failed. Just because one doesn’t like when others' easily shine a spotlight on the director's failure, doesn't mean the colossal failure isn't plausible.

Is this opinion or fact? You are only trying to assert your personal view as the general consensus. This is farther from the truth. Let's be honest; the movie is very contentious and divisive. No one is denying it. However, this does not mean that every critic expresses the same sentiment or reproach. Is it everyone's cup of tea? Clearly not. Is it perfect? Not by a long mile. But to assume that the franchise is dead or a failure because some fans feel robbed is truly disingenuous. At the end of the day, every director will leave his or her stamp on each iteration. Just like Lucas did. Time to move on.

[Luminous]

Originally Posted by Hellboy

I don’t know why it’s so hard for some of you to accept that Luke, in a moment of weakness, did something that was out of character and as such paid a heavy price. This kind of thing happens in everyday life all the time. Much like his father before him his faith was challenged and he lost his way, but in the end found redemption. Just because one doesn’t like how events unfolded doesn’t mean they aren’t plausible.

Again, well said. Unfortunately it doesn't seem like any amount rational expression will cause the other side of the argument to even consider an alternative point of view. And that's the frustrating part. Not that they won't agree, but that there is no sense of a give and take that is inherent in a rational debate. To them, it's either their way or you're "sheep". I can only drive down the same dead end for so long. So I gotta tap out...

[Gothamite]

Originally Posted by T.MAC

I don’t know why it’s so hard for some of you to accept that a director, in trying to put his own stamp on a movie, failed miserably and ruined a beloved character. This kind of thing happens in everyday life all the time. Much like many directors before him who wanted to try to stand out, attempted and failed. Just because one doesn’t like when others' easily shine a spotlight on the director's failure, doesn't mean the colossal failure isn't plausible.

This is also where the concept of "head canon" is useful. Enjoy the aspects of Star Wars that you like, ignore what you don't like. You'll feel happy very quickly.

[T.MAC]

Originally Posted by JP Sarri

Is this opinion or fact? You are only trying to assert your personal view as the general consensus. This is farther from the truth. Let's be honest; the movie is very contentious and divisive. No one is denying it. However, this does not mean that every critic expresses the same sentiment or reproach. Is it everyone's cup of tea? Clearly not. Is it perfect? Not by a long mile. But to assume that the franchise is dead or a failure because some fans feel robbed is truly disingenuous. At the end of the day, every director will leave his or her stamp on each iteration. Just like Lucas did. Time to move on.

Where did I assume the franchise is dead? Also never said franchise was a failure. The Last Jedi is a failure.

Obviously the franchise will continue because some people will like any old turd of a movie with a laser sword.

lol

[Hellboy]

Originally Posted by JP Sarri

Is this opinion or fact? You are only trying to assert your personal view as the general consensus. This is farther from the truth. Let's be honest; the movie is very contentious and divisive. No one is denying it. However, this does not mean that every critic expresses the same sentiment or reproach. Is it everyone's cup of tea? Clearly not. Is it perfect? Not by a long mile. But to assume that the franchise is dead or a failure because some fans feel robbed is truly disingenuous. At the end of the day, every director will leave his or her stamp on each iteration. Just like Lucas did. Time to move on.

Originally Posted by Luminous

Again, well said. Unfortunately it doesn't seem like any amount rational expression will cause the other side of the argument to even consider an alternative point of view. And that's the frustrating part. Not that they won't agree, but that there is no sense of a give and take that is inherent in a rational debate. To them, it's either their way or you're "sheep". I can only drive down the same dead end for so long. So I gotta tap out...

Trying to have an objective conversation with some of you guys is like beating your head against a wall. Not even worth the time. Hate away!

[JP Sarri]