Superman: Year One

[The Dark Knight]

Originally Posted by SONICobra

are you thinking of superman red son?

Yeah, i was talking about red son.

[Shoo]

Originally Posted by wktf

but a Nazi Superman (which I've never heard of).

Originally Posted by SONICobra

are you thinking of superman red son?

Besides the now classic 'Red Son' story, there is a Grant Morrison-penned 'Nazi Superman' story alright.

[wktf]

Originally Posted by The Dark Knight

Yeah, he's a villain. It's an elseworld though like TDKR. The idea is what if baby superman's spaceship landed in Nazi Germany in WW II times instead of America. But that's not the canon Superman. That's an elseworld new superman who is not canon. there is a commie superman too who is not a villain but pretty much a goverment tool, he's stalin's poster child and stuff. And i don't think anyone needs to appologies for any of those elsewold none canon new takes on Superman. Afterall They are not The ''real'' canon Superman of the main univese.

The difference, I think, is that DKR came out long before the Elseworld concept or mark was created. While DKR clearly is set in the future it was never positioned at the time as a different reality, just a possible future version of the current DC reality. Readers took Miller's portrayal of Superman as a bull-in-a-china-shop following-orders lackey of a self-serving federal government as a sign of Miller's general animosity and disrespect for the character.

[The Dark Knight]

Originally Posted by wktf

The difference, I think, is that DKR came out long before the Elseworld concept or mark was created. While DKR clearly is set in the future it was never positioned at the time as a different reality, just a possible future version of the current DC reality. Readers took Miller's portrayal of Superman as a bull-in-a-china-shop following-orders lackey of a self-serving federal government as a sign of Miller's general animosity and disrespect for the character.

Actually, the term Elseworld first came with TDKR. Frank Miller himself said so (i read in an interview) that DC was so ashamed with TDKR at the begining before it became a major hit that they created the Elseworld consept for TDKR. lol Which is pretty much saying it's not canon.

So TDKR is The first elseworld story ever but even you didn't know that wktf so it seems there are many confusions about the story among the comic book readers, that's probably why it gets so much hate from Superman fans.

[wktf]

Originally Posted by The Dark Knight

Actually, the term Elseworld first came with TDKR. Frank Miller himself said so (i read in an interview) that DC was so ashamed with TDKR at the begining before it became a major hit that they created the Elseworld consept for TDKR. lol Which is pretty much saying it's not canon.

So TDKR is The first elseworld story ever but even you didn't know that wktf so it seems there are many confusions about the story among the comic book readers, that's probably why it gets so much hate from Superman fans.

Elseworld stories bear the Elseworld branding or mark. Those four issues of DKR didn't bear this mark. In fact, the first Elseworlds story is considered to be Gotham by Gaslight which came out in 1989, three years after DKR was published, though the mark was created after this story. DC and Miller may have said they created Elseworlds due to DKR but it was not originally an Elseworld (alternative universe) story as opposed to a distopian future story. Hence, when first published and when people like me read it back then (I was 26 when this came out) for the first time, there was no thought this was alternative universe as opposed to a future vision of the DCU.

Interestingly, none of the reprinted/collected versions of DKR that I own bear the Elseworlds brand, unlike those for Kindom Come, another distopian future story, or Batman: Red Rain, for example.

[Kicksplode]

Miller specifically doesn't want DC to use the Elseworlds branding for his Dark Knight books. From what I've gathered he doesn't like it being treated like "just another" alternate reality story. That's also why the Dark Knight Returns world isn't one of the official 52 Earths in DC's current multiverse.

[The Dark Knight]

Originally Posted by wktf

Elseworld stories bear the Elseworld branding or mark. Those four issues of DKR didn't bear this mark. In fact, the first Elseworlds story is considered to be Gotham bun Gaslight which came out in 1989, three years after DKR was published, though the mark was created after this story. DC and Miller may have said they created Elseworlds due to DKR but it was not originally an Elseworld (alternative universe) story as opposed to a distopian future story. Hence, when first published and when people like me read it back then (I was 26 when this came out) for the first time, there was no thought this was alternative universe as opposed to a future vision of the DCU.

Interestingly, none of the reprinted/collected versions of DKR that I own bear the Elseworlds brand, unlike those for Kindom Come, another distopian future story, or Batman: Red Rain, for example.

Originally Posted by Kicksplode

Miller specifically doesn't want DC to use the Elseworlds branding for his Dark Knight books. From what I've gathered he doesn't like it being treated like "just another" alternate reality story. That's also why the Dark Knight Returns world isn't one of the official 52 Earths in DC's current multiverse.

So DC is lying ? it's not really an elseworld ?

when i read TDKR for the first time at 2004, i was told that it was an elseworlds story so i always considered it as an elseworlds story. Miller said it was the first elseworlds story in an interview but a living witness like wktf says it wasn't considered as an elseworld at the time and it never had the elseworlds brand. It's not even included as a known alternate earth in the known multiverse...

But There is All Star Batman and Robin, which is the early years of TDKR Batman and Dick Grayson's origin. If TDKR was canon, ASBAR would be canon too... But ASBAR is not canon, so many people hate the Batman take in ASBAR, they would make riots, if it was canon... lol and if ASBAR is not canon, this means TDKR is not canon at least but not having the elseworlds brand and not included to the known multiverse make it confusing nevertheless... I think we need to learn more about DC Multiverse like the unknown DC multiverse, are there other elseworld books which are not included in The known Multiverse ? What is their understading of an unknown Multiverse ? and stuff...I'm not sure about the elseworld status of TDKR But TDKR is not canon for sure, there is another proff which is Batman Beyond book, it's the canon future of DCU right now.

[wktf]

I don't know if DC is "lying." Can you post the sources from which you got this intel? It may be that they were backpeddling or misspeaking. Miller has tended to go off the rails in his interviews more recently.

Since "canon" in fiction refers to established or agreed-upon constraints governing the background narrative, setting, storyline, characters, etc., in a particular fictional world, it would be hard to call DKR "canon" since it's a future world rather than historical or background. I don't know if Batman Beyond is "canon" for this reason but I agree it DOES exist as the future in DC's continuity, the way it's being written now in the comics.

Again, with DKR: It's a distopian view of the future, outside any continuity and outside DC's multiverse. It's not Elseworlds as it's a future view of DC's current universe.

The difference between Batman Beyond and DKR may be that the former is being written as the definitive future while the latter is a separate distopian vision of DC's current universe.

[The Dark Knight]

Originally Posted by wktf

I don't know if DC is "lying." Can you post the sources from which you got this intel? It may be that they were backpeddling or misspeaking. Miller has tended to go off the rails in his interviews more recently.

Since "canon" in fiction refers to established or agreed-upon constraints governing the background narrative, setting, storyline, characters, etc., in a particular fictional world, it would be hard to call DKR "canon" since it's a future world rather than historical or background. I don't know if Batman Beyond is "canon" for this reason but I agree it DOES exist as the future in DC's continuity, the way it's being written now in the comics.

Again, with DKR: It's a distopian view of the future, outside any continuity and outside DC's multiverse. It's not Elseworlds as it's a future view of DC's current universe.

The difference between Batman Beyond and DKR may be that the former is being written as the definitive future while the latter is a separate distopian vision of DC's current universe.

I can't post the source cause i read it so long time ago, i think it was at newsarama but not even sure of that.

Ok, lets not call TDKR canon... but future of what is canon and it is not that. Batman Beyond is that. I'm sure of it. DC people said so in an interview but that was an interview long time ago too. They said Batman Beyond's the official future of DCU. (we must add ''right now'' we both know how such things can be rebooted easly in comics very well...) They may even say ok, we changed it again... () TDKR is the offical future of DCU now someday, it's not highly unlikely.

A story is either in the main universe or an elseworld... There is no other alternative. If you are not in the main continuity then that means you are in an alternate world, universe's continuity which is called elseworld at DC (what else can it be, even if it doesn't have any difference from the main universe)

TDKR can be a definetive future. A distopian future can very well be the definetive future. It's very possible that things can go very wrong in the future.

[wktf]

I hate to complicate your conclusion regarding "a story is either in the main universe or an Elseworld...there is no alternative," but DC has a long history of "imaginary stories" as collected here...

http://www.dccomics.com/graphic-nove...ginary-stories

...which allowed writers/artists to create stories that "didn't count," and existed outside of any continuity. I always considered DKR to be either a distopian future vision of the DCU or else an imaginary story, existing on its own and outside any continuity. Either way, it's one of the strongest comic book stories ever created and deserves to stand on its own, despite its mistreatment of Superman as a willing government stooge.