The ORVILLE

[johnclone]

Originally Posted by Augen

Locar framed Klyden for murder. If he went free an innocent person would have been incarcerated or potentially executed based on local customs.

Imagine you're an attorney and have a client who is accused of a crime. He is innocent, and is also an awful bigot. You don't ignore base rights because someone holds terrible world views.

Talla didn't take this decision lightly, she was clearly emotionally effected and hates Klyden and his attitude.

This episode shows the challenge of a diverse union of species and could be setting up a falling out with Moclus. Do you hold to your values and potentially risk war and millions of lives lost or play the long frustrating game of gradual change?

Alright, here comes my rant.

So you have Locar and Klyden. Both are doing something that will cause the other one's death. Klyden, because he is going to report Locar to the Moclan authorities, who will then kill Locar. Why is Klyden reporting Locar? Well, apparently I guess he thinks it is his civic duty, or maybe it is just out of jealousy because he suspects Bortis still has feelings for Locar. Perhaps he has some kind of feeling of inadequacy that he cannot measure up against Locar in some way.

But on Moclus, Locar won't even get a trial, just a death sentence. So Locar plans to leave Moclus, and go somewhere else in the galaxy.

So to stay alive, Locar creates a plan to stage his death, and frame Klyden. And it goes quite smoothly, that is until Talla enters the picture. Whatever she does, someone will die. And she has no options. Or does she?...

What if Talla sits on her hunch that Locar is still alive and faked his death and waits until Locar is given a sufficient head start on his plan to escape from Moclan authority before telling everyone he's still alive, what if she played dumb about figuring out Locar's hiding place and learning about his personal cloaking device extension whatever, and says you have x amount of time and then I'll have to tell the captain about all of this.

Then she goes to the captain however many days later, says she thinks she figured something out about the murder and that it never actually happened and that most likely Locar was hiding somewhere but he might have made it off the ship, declares Klyden is innocent after all, etc. Klyden is off the hook for the murder that never happened.

She could even explain her dilemma to the captain, once Locar has had some time to start his escape. He had a lot of skill with technology, it is possible he'd figure something out to get off the ship and stay alive as he intended originally. The captain is humane, and I think he of all people would understand that she didn't want to send a man to his death.

Instead of anything like this, with a cold inhuman adherence to "just following her orders and doing her duty and so on" she turns him in, knowing full well, that she is now sending this young talented man to his death all because of his sexuality. Like Pilate, she "washes her hands of the matter" by telling off Klyden a little in the hallway. Now she can live with herself because you see, she really didn't enjoy doing it, but it just had to be done.

Honestly, after watching this episode I absolutely now hate this character, and despise Klyden. It isn't enough to cause me to stop watching the show, because I really do think that the captain would have handled things differently if he knew a life was hanging in the balance and had been allowed to escape.

Now we can always wonder, couldn't the captain have kept Locar under his protection, Locar could ask for asylum or whatever, but I suppose the captain felt the entire relationship between the "united space federation or whatever they are calling it" and Moclus might be jeopardized and so he turned him over. But if Locar truly did escape, and Talla helped this to happen and the captain learned of all of this after the fact, would he be lenient towards her, I think so.

Yes, I realize that I'm getting all worked up for nothing over a fictional space show with made up alien characters.

Even more?
I suppose that the one main problem in all this is that while she gives Locar time to escape meanwhile Klyden was going to be shipped off to Moclus and killed for a crime he didn't do, - so she would have had to assure the captain that it was very important that Klyden be not considered the only suspect for the "killing" - that she had some leads to another explanation and just needed some time to finish her investigation. And that if he signed off on sending Klyden to Moclus, he might be sending an innocent man to his death because she was considering a theory that he had been framed. I don't think the captain would have ignored that. He might have had to do some juggling with the Moclans, but he'd get the extra time and wait for her to conclude her investigation.

[Augen]

Originally Posted by johnclone

Alright, here comes my rant.

So you have Locar and Klyden. Both are doing something that will cause the other one's death. Klyden, because he is going to report Locar to the Moclan authorities, who will then kill Locar. Why is Klyden reporting Locar? Well, apparently I guess he thinks it is his civic duty, or maybe it is just out of jealousy because he suspects Bortis still has feelings for Locar. Perhaps he has some kind of feeling of inadequacy that he cannot measure up against Locar in some way.

But on Moclus, Locar won't even get a trial, just a death sentence. So Locar plans to leave Moclus, and go somewhere else in the galaxy.

So to stay alive, Locar creates a plan to stage his death, and frame Klyden. And it goes quite smoothly, that is until Talla enters the picture. Whatever she does, someone will die. And she has no options. Or does she?...

What if Talla sits on her hunch that Locar is still alive and faked his death and waits until Locar is given a sufficient head start on his plan to escape from Moclan authority before telling everyone he's still alive, what if she played dumb about figuring out Locar's hiding place and learning about his personal cloaking device extension whatever, and says you have x amount of time and then I'll have to tell the captain about all of this.

Then she goes to the captain however many days later, says she thinks she figured something out about the murder and that it never actually happened and that most likely Locar was hiding somewhere but he might have made it off the ship, declares Klyden is innocent after all, etc. Klyden is off the hook for the murder that never happened.

She could even explain her dilemma to the captain, once Locar has had some time to start his escape. He had a lot of skill with technology, it is possible he'd figure something out to get off the ship and stay alive as he intended originally. The captain is humane, and I think he of all people would understand that she didn't want to send a man to his death.

Instead of anything like this, with a cold inhuman adherence to "just following her orders and doing her duty and so on" she turns him in, knowing full well, that she is now sending this young talented man to his death all because of his sexuality. Like Pilate, she "washes her hands of the matter" by telling off Klyden a little in the hallway. Now she can live with herself because you see, she really didn't enjoy doing it, but it just had to be done.

Honestly, after watching this episode I absolutely now hate this character, and despise Klyden. It isn't enough to cause me to stop watching the show, because I really do think that the captain would have handled things differently if he knew a life was hanging in the balance and had been allowed to escape.

Now we can always wonder, couldn't the captain have kept Locar under his protection, Locar could ask for asylum or whatever, but I suppose the captain felt the entire relationship between the "united space federation or whatever they are calling it" and Moclus might be jeopardized and so he turned him over. But if Locar truly did escape, and Talla helped this to happen and the captain learned of all of this after the fact, would he be lenient towards her, I think so.

Yes, I realize that I'm getting all worked up for nothing over a fictional space show with made up alien characters.

Even more?
I suppose that the one main problem in all this is that while she gives Locar time to escape meanwhile Klyden was going to be shipped off to Moclus and killed for a crime he didn't do, - so she would have had to assure the captain that it was very important that Klyden be not considered the only suspect for the "killing" - that she had some leads to another explanation and just needed some time to finish her investigation. And that if he signed off on sending Klyden to Moclus, he might be sending an innocent man to his death because she was considering a theory that he had been framed. I don't think the captain would have ignored that. He might have had to do some juggling with the Moclans, but he'd get the extra time and wait for her to conclude her investigation.

First, I appreciate you've thought about this, now onto the reply.

I may need to rewatch, but I don't recall Klyden stating he was going to report Locar. He condemned him, so there was a chance, I don't remember that aspect being explicit.

We don't know that if Klyden had accused Locar how Locar would have reacted. My interpretation was at the end he confessed to his "crime" hence no trial. Normally procedure could have had a trial and not sure how that would play out.

How would Locar get a head start? In a shuttle? Even with his engineering expertise I'm not sure how he'd manage to cloak it and achieve FTL travel. Even if it isn't hard sci fi, there are levels of suspension of disbelief.

Your plan has merit in the sense it comes from trying to win in a no win situation. We don't know how things will end with the chances we take. She could have tried to help and caused a Union incident and possibly lose everything and cause the loss of lives of others including Locar.

I'm not sure she did so as dis-compassionately as you suggest. Much like Topa's gender reassignment, this could have a legacy with how Talla interacts with people and decisions she makes in the future. She may view it as a mistake and feel tremendous sense of guilt.

I'd argue Locar is not blameless. He knew Moclans bigotry and yet he pursued Talla who was ignorant as to the depths of what that meant within his culture. He could have joined the Union like Bortus, and then planned an escape without entangling someone else. He was in a bad situation and suffered because emotions such as love cloud our sense of practical logic.

No issue getting worked up. The opposite of love is not hate, it is indifference. I would say in writing, there is a difference between bad writing and having flawed characters. Did Talla come up with the most clever way to resolve the situation? No, but for me it is what grounds the show. This isn't the flagship of the Union, it's an average craft with people having flaws. Almost everyone has been shown to struggle and not have all the answers. To me the show conveyed that she didn't find the best way to deal with a bad situation.

I don't think you're wrong. I think it comes down to expectations and interpretations. To me their are two types of fictional heroes, the aspirational and the relateable. The Orville from the start feels much more like the latter while Star Trek TNG felt like the former. It's the difference between being the flagship of the Federation, and just an average ship in the Union.

I hope you keep watching, I'd like discussing episodes with you as can see how your perspective would offer new dimensions I may not see.

[Augen]

If you don't like Identity Part 1 The Orville the show may not be for you, because holy cow is that intense.

Spoilers.

Finding out the Kaylons committed genocide on their creators and planted Issac as a mole for the plan to exterminate all biological organisms was really dark. We also see dozens of Orville crew members slaughtered as the ship is lost to Kaylons who are now heading to Earth for war and genocide.

I know a lot of fans complained about soap opera elements in some episodes and I'll agree it has been a mixed bag, but this felt like 99% Star Trek with a few quick jokes, but over all a very dark action sci fi episode. I cannot wait for Part 2.

[nearmint]

Dark indeed. Will be fun to see how the Orville crew gets out of this one.

SPOILERS

I suppose if Isaac can be simply shut off, all the Kaylons could be.

Isaac seems like too cool a character to leave the show, but would the cliche of his character betraying his race to save the Orville crew be too outside the dark tone set by part 1?

I missed the humor, but damn, this was a good episode. It had kind of a Black Mirror vibe to it, with technology run amok.

[Augen]

Originally Posted by nearmint

Dark indeed. Will be fun to see how the Orville crew gets out of this one.

SPOILERS

I suppose if Isaac can be simply shut off, all the Kaylons could be.

Isaac seems like too cool a character to leave the show, but would the cliche of his character betraying his race to save the Orville crew be too outside the dark tone set by part 1?

I missed the humor, but damn, this was a good episode. It had kind of a Black Mirror vibe to it, with technology run amok.

It is called "Identity" so my guess is the arc will be Issac discovering a sense of individualism among a collectivist species. I don't see how the crew has a chance without help from him.

The question is what will the cost be? Will the Kaylons massacre Union ships before they are stopped leaving them vulnerable to Krill invasion? Will the Krill possibly see a greater threat and enter a tenuous alliance? Will the Kaylons be locked onto their planet? Completely shut off? Be infected with a virus that teaches empathy? How will the crew view Issac, he may be the last of his kind after next week and the lingering resentment could bring into question having a Kaylon on a Union ship. Even if it all works out, estimate a good 20 Orville crew were murdered in the take over and more could follow next week. That isn't something that can be laughed off.

I don't see it going full on Black Mirror grim, but I do think their will be fall out.

[Gruson]

Wow EPIC EPISODE!

Seth is a big fan of Best of Both Worlds from TNG and has talked how episode 1 was such a cliffhanger with that classic music at the end. He even hired Ron Jones for Family Guy because of it.

Well, Seth just had his own Best of Both Worlds moment. That episode was incredible. Can’t wait for part 2.

[Philintheblank]

Definitely one of the best episodes so far. I'm with Augen on Isaac somehow breaking free from the 'collective'. Probably forming some degree of empathy or 'humanity' in the process. Seems like the most probable outcome...would also help with his relationships with the doctor and her kids. They made a real effort to point out how logical/clueless he is when it comes to relationships and whatnot. ...or maybe it's all a double cross. Granted, he would have to have been pretty committed with all that shooting the crew stuff.

Definitely be some fall out...

[Primus]

Personally I dident get the logic behind the Kalons actions. Why make yourselves a target unessarily? They could populate any planet they wished to if they needed to expand and the planet doesn’t need to be habitable for organic life either. Announcing your intention is to exterminate all biological organisms in the galaxy just makes the entire galaxy your enimie! Races that may hate each other would come together for a common foe, all of the union worlds the krill, and others. The Kalons May be supirior with there technology but could easily be overwhelmed by superior numbers. Where as just shutting the hell up and expanding quietly would make more sense as no one in the galaxy seemed to be bothering them anyway! But the again we wouldn’t have a show if that were the case lol

[Philintheblank]

Originally Posted by Primus

Personally I dident get the logic behind the Kalons actions. Why make yourselves a target unessarily? They could populate any planet they wished to if they needed to expand and the planet doesn’t need to be habitable for organic life either. Announcing your intention is to exterminate all biological organisms in the galaxy just makes the entire galaxy your enimie! Races that may hate each other would come together for a common foe, all of the union worlds the krill, and others. The Kalons May be supirior with there technology but could easily be overwhelmed by superior numbers. Where as just shutting the hell up and expanding quietly would make more sense as no one in the galaxy seemed to be bothering them anyway! But the again we wouldn’t have a show if that were the case lol

pretty much

...I mean, if you really wanted to come up with an explanation you probably could...maybe they thought the others would also continue expanding and conflict was inevitable...so they went to nip it in the bud. I don't know...

[Augen]

Originally Posted by Primus

Personally I dident get the logic behind the Kalons actions. Why make yourselves a target unessarily? They could populate any planet they wished to if they needed to expand and the planet doesn’t need to be habitable for organic life either. Announcing your intention is to exterminate all biological organisms in the galaxy just makes the entire galaxy your enimie! Races that may hate each other would come together for a common foe, all of the union worlds the krill, and others. The Kalons May be supirior with there technology but could easily be overwhelmed by superior numbers. Where as just shutting the hell up and expanding quietly would make more sense as no one in the galaxy seemed to be bothering them anyway! But the again we wouldn’t have a show if that were the case lol

They repeatedly state how superior they are intellectually, but their emotions show a lack of creativity. They simply cannot see the value in individualism and how in that chaos genius can be born. Their arrogance is so great they cannot conceive of losing. Ed even mentions while they may be top of the known Galaxy, they've only charted a small fraction so who knows what may be out there. Katlin condemns creativity and curiosity limiting their potential.