Who Amongst Us Isn't an Asshole

[stormshadow75x]

Fascinating stuff.
At least he get's his money back........

BTW, wasn't familiar with Mr. Brooks' work but have to say I'm now a fan.

[Royd]

Wow, I go to sleep and wake up to a flurry of activity on this thread! I'm surprised that Lee has apparently decided to call it quits as I'll "miss" his regular ("this will be my last") anti-AH! rants, his rants on artists who have "stiffed" him etc.

Actually..... it seems like Lee's often ranting about someone or mentioning with seeming pride that he's been blacklisted by artists - not sure what the common denominator or correlation factor is here .....

[galactus]

It still boggles my mind that people are shocked by Tim's putting HIS artwork on ebay. Lee very clearly stated in his first post that he emailed Tim to say he NO LONGER WANTED THE ARTWORK. Can someone please explain to me WHY Tim shouldn't be able to do as he pleases with the artwork after that?

While you're at it, please explain how a deposit placed on artwork, which is completed and approved by the purchaser, does not entitle the artist to payment for his time and effort?

[galactus]

Originally Posted by Royd

Wow, I go to sleep and wake up to a flurry of activity on this thread! I'm surprised that Lee has apparently decided to call it quits as I'll "miss" his regular ("this will be my last") anti-AH! rants, his rants on artists who have "stiffed" him etc.

Actually..... it seems like Lee's often ranting about someone or mentioning with seeming pride that he's been blacklisted by artists - not sure what the common denominator or correlation factor is here .....

[ansel39]

Originally Posted by galactus

It still boggles my mind that people are shocked by Tim's putting HIS artwork on ebay. Lee very clearly stated in his first post that he emailed Tim to say he NO LONGER WANTED THE ARTWORK. Can someone please explain to me WHY Tim shouldn't be able to do as he pleases with the artwork after that?

While you're at it, please explain how a deposit placed on artwork, which is completed and approved by the purchaser, does not entitle the artist to payment for his time and effort?

[marvelboi77]

Originally Posted by Mark brooks

Lee, you ask if you are being unreasonable or not and I assume you would like an honest answer so I will be honest.
YES, you are being completely unreasonable on nearly every level and expect service from an artist that is not in your employ. You keep calling yourself a client but this is actually untrue. A client is someone that commissions artwork to be used for something else whether it be licensing, print, merchandise, or whatever. When a person commissions an artist to produce work for private use it is called being a patron. And as a patron in most areas of art you don't get to dictate what you want drawn or painted, you simply decide if you like the work that has been done and pay accordingly. With comic art there is more leeway in this area because you are able to request things such as costume, setting and even whether you want it vertical or horizontal. What you do not get to do is hang over my shoulder and dictate every little thing I do in completing your piece. The reason for this is 2-fold. First, the money patrons pay for a commission is usually less that what our clients pay. The reason for this is because most fans cannot afford what a client can afford and it's a show of goodwill to charge a fan less than what your work is worth. The downside to this though is that you are not entitled to the same service our clients are entitled to. The second is the fact that we, as artists, are taking time away from our regular work to draw for you in our free time. Is that your problem? NO, but if we are going to take our time away from our family, friends, video games, whatever, we want the experience to be at least somewhat enjoyable. For instance, if you request a vertical piece of Nightfall Batman overlooking Gotham City from a roof top at night you're going to get a much better piece than if you you request a vertical piece of Knightfall Batman but the Kelly version with longer ears, and a shorter cape and have him on a roof top but make sure he's no less that 10 stories up and make the building gothic but not too gothic and make it a church but don't make it too obvious that it a church and please put the bat signal in the background but make sure it's the cool batsignal, not the cheesy one and I would like him crouched on the edge but only with one leg up on the ledge and make sure he's not in profile and no baterang(god help you if you put in a baterang!) and make sure there are no stars in the background, only clouds but I still want to see the moon. At this point you have taken every bit of pleasure out of the experience and I have no room to surprise you. Comic artist are paid to use our imaginations to come up with something cool to look at. And assuming that you are not an artist Lee I can assure you that our ability to imagine something cool is better than your. This isn't a slam, just what happens after years and years of learning to draw cool things. Our imaginations become more honed than yours so it's to your benefit to let go a little and let an artist surprise you. I guarantee that he or she will come up with somethings that you might have never thought of. Not to mention we tend to enjoy drawing something that we can use our imaginations on and makes us work even harder on the piece producing a work of art that is far better in quality than one that is art directed to death.

Considering you are paying less than a client but are acting just like a client makes Tim's decision to cease the relationship completely understandable. Now, if you would like to be charged as a client instead of a patron then by all means, demand to your heart's content but be prepared to pay for it. You're not going to get the same service at Chili's that you get a Morton's Steak House. That's just a fact.

The main place where you aren't going to find any sympathy is when you approved a layout and then disapproved of the final piece. At that point in the artist/patron relationship you are normally obligated to pay for the piece regardless of your thoughts because the time to make changes has come and gone and you have signed off on what the artist is about to do. If you outright refused to purchase the piece then I guess that would be your prerogative but purposely trying to publicly damage an artist after he has gone well above where he should have gone for someone who I would consider an unreasonable patron definitely shows someone acting like a DB and it's not Tim.

And as for the money, I am assuming that this situation has happened over the last few days since the thread was posted yesterday. So as of right now you have no idea whether Tim is going to refund the money so to assume that he isn't is just that, an assumption. It's you trying to slander an artist for something he hasn't even done yet. Not to mention the fact that the money was for a discount rate and was considered a deposit which is normally nonrefundable. Again, this is Tim going above and beyond for a patron that, in all honesty, doesn't really deserve it. If you want to complain about the money, wait a week. If you haven't received something by then, then you might have a leg to stand on but, until then, you need to step back, take a deep breath and rethink your tactics as a art patron a little bit. I guarantee it will be a more fun hobby for you and you will find yourself being pleasantly surprised most of the time with the kind of work you wind up with.

And if you find any of this offensive, I apologize but please remember, you asked for it.

Best regards,
-Mark

Here is where I gotta disagree with you. We the patrons are paying for art ahead of time in most cases. It seems like it is the norm now for the artists to give a time line of a few months and then it goes on for years and no art. I'm sorry but when your playing video games, having time with your family, going on vacations, staring in local plays, making your sketch book, drawing at conventions etc, and sitting on my money as a patron I have a problem with that.

[marvelboi77]

Originally Posted by galactus

Tim was getting the price he asked for. Lee approved his work when asked. When Lee didn't like one of the pieces, the artist offered the remaining pieces, which Lee DID like, for LESS than the original asking price.

In your terms, you were contracted for four separate buildings, the client approves the building plans of each, you build all four, the client likes three of them. You then design new plans for the fourth building, but the client doesn't like them. You then let the client know that you will be unable to complete the last building to his specifications and let him know he can have the three buildings he wants for LESS than the original price (which basically guarantees the same overall profit as if you had received the regular margin on all four building).

Basically, Lee got what we wanted on the three pieces for LESS than negotiated. How exactly did Tim provide less than what was promised?

But if Lee got on a train from Chicago to New York that would take 14 hours to get to New York. If Lee got on the train at 2:30PM and got off the train half way, what time did he get off the train?

[galactus]

Originally Posted by marvelboi77

But if Lee got on a train from Chicago to New York that would take 14 hours to get to New York. If Lee got on the train at 2:30PM and got off the train half way, what time did he get off the train?

Assuming you mean 2:30pm Central time, when he got off the train 7 hours later, it would be 10:30pm Eastern time (somewhere near the Ohio/PA border I would guess)

[goingbroke223]

Originally Posted by marvelboi77

Here is where I gotta disagree with you. We the patrons are paying for art ahead of time in most cases. It seems like it is the norm now for the artists to give a time line of a few months and then it goes on for years and no art. I'm sorry but when your playing video games, having time with your family, going on vacations, staring in local plays, making your sketch book, drawing at conventions etc, and sitting on my money as a patron I have a problem with that.

[Rocket]

Originally Posted by marvelboi77

Here is where I gotta disagree with you. We the patrons are paying for art ahead of time in most cases. It seems like it is the norm now for the artists to give a time line of a few months and then it goes on for years and no art. I'm sorry but when your playing video games, having time with your family, going on vacations, staring in local plays, making your sketch book, drawing at conventions etc, and sitting on my money as a patron I have a problem with that.

This, like Leroy, I gotta strongly agree with also