Wonder Woman **SPOILERS COMMENCE Pg 85***

[Marvelito]

Originally Posted by Hellboy

I had zero issues with GG however and thought she was great.

I liked GG in the role as well, and to be honest I was not thrilled with the choice way back when it was announced. I crushed on her in the F & F films, but could not see her as WW. I think my "issue" if you can call it that, is not even really her fault. I felt that the other Amazons had more of what I had hoped WW would have. Of course I realize that they are seasoned warriors and this is Diana's first real war/adventure, so she's not supposed to be like that yet. I hope that she will grow into that as the films progress, and I'm sure it will, I just felt Antiope was more Wonder Woman than Wonder Woman in this film.

Originally Posted by Hellboy

You definitely hit on something with the whole "fish out of water" aspect though. It fits with the character and it's her origin so I get why it's there but that doesn't change the fact that it's such a cliche plot device and as such weakened the experience for me as well.

I'm fearing that we are in for yet another "fish out of water" film with Aquaman, no pun intended. I really hope they come up with something else for their origin story though.

I have yet to skip a CBM in the theater, and I don't see myself doing so anytime soon, but the "bloom is definitely off the rose" for me with these films. I'm including both DC and Marvel, but especially for Marvel at the moment. It's a full blown genre now, so I hope we begin to see some creativity come in to play soon.

[Marvelito]

Originally Posted by Gothamite

Why would you make this assumption?

I made no assumption of anything, I was being sarcastic. Out of the entire post that was the only thing you commented on. It's an odd thing to focus on, unless you were trying to show me your superior historical knowledge, in which case bravo! You schooled me son!

[Gothamite]

Originally Posted by Marvelito

I made no assumption of anything, I was being sarcastic. Out of the entire post that was the only thing you commented on. It's an odd thing to focus on, unless you were trying to show me your superior historical knowledge, in which case bravo! You schooled me son!

[JP Sarri]

Originally Posted by Gothamite

Assumptions and blanket statements are inherently problematic.

So you say.

[Gothamite]

Originally Posted by JP Sarri

So you say.

Nazism is a specific ideology, which as you mentioned, incorporates elements of nationalism and anti-Semitism.

Did this movie's Luddendorff actually say or do anything that was anti-Semitic? No.

Not all German nationalists were anti-Semitic, and indeed, many German nationalists were anti-Nazi. Therefore, describing Luddendorff as a Nazi is not only temporally incorrect but also by definition wrong.

[Matches Malone]

Originally Posted by Marvelito

I have yet to skip a CBM in the theater, and I don't see myself doing so anytime soon, but the "bloom is definitely off the rose" for me with these films. I'm including both DC and Marvel, but especially for Marvel at the moment. It's a full blown genre now, so I hope we begin to see some creativity come in to play soon.

I hear you in regards to the genre. I thought the WW1 setting, female protagonist and the fact that the DCEU is such an enigma kept WW "fresh", but it certainly kept with the Marvel mould. I unfortunately have a strong feeling that Spider-man will ironically be the the turning point to the negative with the MCU. Watiti's take on Thor however may give it a small reprieve.

[JP Sarri]

Originally Posted by Gothamite

Nazism is a specific ideology, which as you mentioned, incorporates elements of nationalism and anti-Semitism.

Did this movie's Ludendorff actually say or do anything that was anti-Semitic? No.

Not all German nationalists were anti-Semitic, and indeed, many German nationalists were anti-Nazi. Therefore, describing Luddendorff as a Nazi is not only temporally incorrect but also by definition wrong.

And your point is? Do you really believe that Marvelito was literally saying that Ludendorff was a Nazi? Or that I was inferring that all German citizens of that era were ultra-nationalist and anti-Semitic? Do you understand the importance of parallelism and allegories as rethorical devices? As means of conveying a message through the use of symbolic references? It was very clear, at least to me, that Marvelito was referring to Lunderdooff as a "cut-out Nazi" from a descriptive point of view. He was talking about Hollywood's predictive way of presenting villains as one dimensional characters, cut from the same literary cloth.

Although I do not agree with everything Marvelito is saying (I'm a sucker for easy predictable stories), I can understand his point of view. I do not take offense of his opinion because in the end, he is entitled to it. Making assumptions and blanket statements, as those you have made, will always get you in trouble. Sarcasm is a fool's tool better left behind.

[The Watcher]

Originally Posted by JP Sarri

Lunderdooff

[JP Sarri]

Originally Posted by The Watcher

Too late to get it right.

[Josh-a-tron]

Originally Posted by Marvelito

I saw the film last night, and while I did enjoy it, I was underwhelmed to be honest.

I am by no means overly knowledgeable in regards to WW and her mythos. I know her more from the TV show and animated shows than I do from comics, and what I do know from comics is mostly from appearances in JL or other books, not her own. So when I judge this film, it's more about the film than comparing it to her history in comics.

The film was kind of weird for me in the sense that it would give you something cool, then it would take it away and give you something goofy. Case in point was the lasso. The lasso was a cool weapon and a cool effect to achieve it, but the goofy way it caused those under its spell to fight it was just was not what I wanted. The fights were also cool and well choreographed, but then they'd throw in some odd almost photoshopped looking shots of WW posing or freeze framing in action, like the closing shot of the film. Gal was very likable and carried herself well physically, but she was missing the "Woman" in WW for me. I know that has more to do with this being an origin story and her first adventure, but while she was very heroic in her deeds, she wasn't able to convey the command or presence I expected from WW. Again, this may be by design because of the story being told but it did stand out to me. In regards to the story, it really is something that is an unfortunate thing for these comic films. Every franchise needs to tell its origin story and the reality is that many of these characters have very similar stories, so it's very repetitive and unoriginal, but that's just the way it has to be I guess. The whole fish out water aspect would really take me out of the film a bit. It was "cute" at times, and played in to the era of the film but it was bit much for me. The bit with the ice cream, and the obligatory montage sequence of her trying on outfits, but this was especially true with the whole angle of her being a woman in a "man's" world. Again, I know this all boils down to story, but those moments took me out of the film after a while. Lastly, the villains were just not very menacing or engaging. Dr. Poison was cool but really didn't amount to much and honestly anyone could have done what she did IMO. Ludendorff was not really interesting at all, he was a cut-out Nazi hooked on drugs to get him through the war. Ares and the bait and switch fell flat for me. I can't say what it was, but I sort of caught on immediately that this guy was not on the up and up. When Ludendorff died I was thinking "if he really was Ares I'm going to be pissed!", at which point I realized for sure that Thewlis was Ares and sure enough, there he was. When Ares destroyed the sword and it turns out that... gasp... "the weapon was you the whole time Diana!!" I kind of rolled my eyes a bit. Formidable villains are very tough to come by, I get it. Especially when we all know the hero is not really in any danger, but at least give them a good, hard fight. Bloody the hero's nose a bit, you know what I mean?

So those are my thoughts on the film. I know it may have come off like I hated the film, but I didn't, it just wasn't exactly what I wanted. I also think the film was a tad longer than it needed to be. At this point I kind of feel like Goldilocks in regards to the DCEU, "this film is too dark, this film is too light", I think if we can really find a nice mixture between the films that have been released "it will be just right!" Hopefully JL is that film, that or Aquaman, I forget what's next.

I agree with a few points but also kind of disagree on many more. Knowing Wonder Woman and her origins through the years does make a bit of a difference. While you say that Ludendorff was a cut-out Nazi if they had in fact taken her at her original origin's time period she would have in fact been fighting Nazi's. I think the change to WWI was indeed to try and separate this film , at least a little bit from Captain America. I enjoyed the fish out of water parts because that is so inherently Diana's tale. She's pure and the world around her that she's been kept from is so inherently full of gray area's, if they had not touched on how that effects her in an origin story it would have completely missed the point of who she was in the beginning, so I enjoyed those moments and it also gives her a chance as a Character to grow with story. Also knowing that she was the weapon against Ares as soon as it was brought up, again, I'm pretty well read in Wonder Woman, so the switch was no surprise and I think most Wonder Woman comic fans saw that coming from it's inception. So I think that was supposed to be for casual audiences but as you said they probably did a pretty poor job of hiding that even from casual comic movie goers. I also found the fight with Ares to be a bit cliche, but at least it wasn't over in a split second and she did get a bit dirtied. Though I agree that it could have been a bit more epic as a fight between a God and Demi-God should be.

All in all I really liked this film, the first film in the DCEU I can say that about. While I hope they continue to stick more closely to the comics as this film did, I also hope they find better ways to make some of the moments feel more epic as these characters deserve and like you said find a good balance of Dark and Light for each character but still maintain the essence of the Characters History, like they did with Diana and not so much as they did with everything else they've done.