Another Christmas shooting.....

[JM28Cardiff]

Guns don't kill people; people kill people. But guns make it easier for people to kill people.

Is it too late for things to change? Maybe it is too late, but then again, who would have thought the Samurai would give up their swords? People in Elizabethan England went round with daggers and swords on their belt, but they don't anymore. You don't see many people duelling with pistols any more either. So things can change, over time.

I dont have kids, but if I did, and lived somewhere that needed armed guards on the primary school gates, I'd be looking to live somewhere else.

[CessnaDriver]

Safety is greatly an illusion. We manage risk, we cannot eliminate it.
We are truly the first responders to our own safety.
Firearms also make it easy for someone otherwise helpless to defend themselves against criminals. There is example after example of this and also the massive deterrent value that if you do chose to attack someone you may be making a very big mistake.

This 12 year old girls story is astonishing...

http://www.newson6.com/story/1985870...-home-invasion

Is 12 years old to old to be at home alone? So that is one question I have, but likely her access to this weapon probably saved her from being raped or murdered. She made good choices and good judgment and kept her head.
Would we rather she not have been armed that day?


In the broader picture looking at history... if you let the tools of tyranny be built up around you (disarming of the citizenry being one of those tools) often in the name of security of course, sooner or later someone is going to use those tools against you.

Someday technology may provide better solutions, phasers set to stun perhaps. But we aren't there yet and I live in the world I live in.

[joefixit2]

Originally Posted by CessnaDriver

Safety is greatly an illusion. We manage risk, we cannot eliminate it.
We are truly the first responders to our own safety.
Firearms also make it easy for someone otherwise helpless to defend themselves against criminals. There is example after example of this and also the massive deterrent value that if you do chose to attack someone you may be making a very big mistake.

This 12 year old girls story is astonishing...

http://www.newson6.com/story/1985870...-home-invasion

Is 12 years old to old to be at home alone? So that is one question I have, but likely her access to this weapon probably saved her from being raped or murdered. She made good choices and good judgment and kept her head.
Would we rather she not have been armed that day?


In the broader picture looking at history... if you let the tools of tyranny be built up around you (disarming of the citizenry being one of those tools) often in the name of security of course, sooner or later someone is going to use those tools against you.

Someday technology may provide better solutions, phasers set to stun perhaps. But we aren't there yet and I live in the world I live in.

How about all the stories of kids finding guns and killing either themselves or a friend? Did you forget about those? THere has never been a recorded incident where an armed civilian has actually stopped a person involved in a mass killing.

The "thousands" of current gun laws number has been thrown out there for many many years but is not based on any facts. The true number of gun laws is much much smaller: http://www.brookings.edu/es/urban/pu...s/gunbook4.pdf

Originally Posted by armitage

The usual extremists will all come out salivating over gun control, and ignore this utter failure of our justice system. Notice a pattern emerging here?
Just like they ignore the fact our OWN government supplied guns to drug cartels in Mexico and were responsible for the deaths of many people. All in the pursuit to blame the 2nd amendment and strip our rights away.
It's not a conspiracy when it's a fact.

What about the extremists who every time there is one of these incidents instead of wanting to reasonable talk about some types of gun control will rather get on their soap box and start shouting about how the big scary governement is going to break into their house and take all their guns. No one said they want to take all the guns away but the extremists would rather get the crowd all instigated.

Originally Posted by CessnaDriver

People learn CPR, the schools have fire drills and extinquishers. It's called being prepared.
A few trained people can make all the difference.
Emergency drills can be different types. We all learned earthquake and fire when I was in school, a security drill would be good to do to.

The fact that you equated knowing CPR to having armed guards in a school scares me.

[armitage]

Originally Posted by joefixit2

What about the extremists who every time there is one of these incidents instead of wanting to reasonable talk about some types of gun control will rather get on their soap box and start shouting about how the big scary governement is going to break into their house and take all their guns. No one said they want to take all the guns away but the extremists would rather get the crowd all instigated.
.

How about those with vested interest in big government who's source of income and wealth is directly tied to the expansion of the bureaucracy. The same people who wouldn't dare bite the hand that feeds them even when there are flagrant violations and treasonous acts against the citizens of that country, who will do whatever they can to preserve their jobs.
What about those people?

[biglebowski9999]

Originally Posted by joefixit2

What about the extremists who every time there is one of these incidents instead of wanting to reasonable talk about some types of gun control will rather get on their soap box and start shouting about how the big scary governement is going to break into their house and take all their guns. No one said they want to take all the guns away but the extremists would rather get the crowd all instigated.

So what is your proposal? I assume you are in the "let's get rid of assault rifles" camp? I'll be honest with you, I am a gun lover and I can't give you a single reason why I *need* to have an assault rifle. I can't. Other than they are fun to shoot, like all the other guns I shoot recreationally. But do you honestly think banning the sale of assault rifles will do a damn thing? It won't. First off, any in existence up to the day this law goes into effect would be grandfathered in. Do you think a nutjob with motive isn't going to find one?

The other issue is...they aren't the problem. Here's some info from USA Today, I've highlighted the interesting points.

Mass killers target Americans once every two weeks on average, in attacks that range from robberies to horrific public shooting sprees like the massacre Friday of 27 people in Newtown, Conn., a USA TODAY examination found.

Using news accounts and FBI records from 2006 through 2010, the most recent years for which complete records were available, USA TODAY identified 156 murders that met the FBI definitions of mass killings, where four or more people were killed.

All told, the attacks killed 774 people, including at least 161 young children.

The review offers perhaps the most current, complete picture yet of a crime that is both frighteningly common and not widely understood.

"Everybody is surprised when they hear it's dozens a year," said Northeastern University criminologist James Alan Fox, who has studied mass murders. "People don't understand them. When they think of mass murders, they only think it's random."

USA TODAY's examination did not include murders during the past two years, both of which were marked by a series of high-profile public shootings, including a rampage this year at an Aurora, Colo., movie theater that left 12 dead and 57 injured, and an attack on a Sikh temple in Wisconsin that killed six.

Without more complete records, it is impossible to know whether mass killings increased over those years — though they have become less common since the mid-1990s, according to Grant Duwe, director of research at the Minnesota Department of Corrections, who has studied mass murders.

The killings between 2006 and 2010, however, offer a portrait of mass murder that in many ways belies the stereotype of a lone gunman targeting strangers:
Lone gunmen, such as the one who terrorized Sandy Hook Elementary School last week, account for less than half of the nation's mass killers. About a quarter of mass murders involve two or more killers.
A third of mass killings didn't involve guns at all. In 15 incidents, the victims died in a fire. In 20 others, the killer used a knife or a blunt object. When guns were involved, killers were far more likely to use handguns than any other type of weapon.
Children are frequently victims. At least 161 who died in mass killings -- roughly one in five -- were 12 and younger.
Mass murderers tend to be older than other killers, with an average age of nearly 32 years old. Like all killers, they are overwhelmingly men.
Friday's massacre in Newtown "has turned a whole new page" in the nation's long-running debate over guns, said Rep. Carolyn McCarthy, D-N.Y., a leading proponent of tighter gun laws. "Parents and grandparents, dads, gun owners are thinking that their children at any time at any place could have someone come in and do this kind of massacre."

But for all the attention they receive, mass killings still accounted for only a tiny fraction — about 1% — of all the Americans who were murdered over those five years. During those five years, more died from migraines and falling out of chairs than were murdered by mass killers, according to death records kept by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. Three times as many people perished from sunstroke.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/n...ommon/1778303/

So what's the solution? Just get rid of assault rifles? Handguns are used much more frequently in situations like this. So get rid of handguns then? Good luck with that. So, what to do about all the other instruments of death these whackos have at their disposal? Fire, homemade explosives, knives, baseball bats, cars...the list is endless.

Situations like Newton are tragic beyond belief but the kneejerk "solutions" that people jump to are downright laughable. Lets get rid of the guns, but not address the root issue...that's the typical American "quick-fix" logic. So what happens when we get rid of all the guns and these incidents continue (because they would)?

I wonder if any of the people that are so quick to jump on the gun bandwagon realize that nearly every single mass-murder is on some type of SSRI drug (Prozac, Zoloft, etc)...why isn't this disturbing connection ever discussed?

http://beforeitsnews.com/health/2012...n-2417899.html

[joefixit2]

Originally Posted by armitage

How about those with vested interest in big government who's source of income and wealth is directly tied to the expansion of the bureaucracy. The same people who wouldn't dare bite the hand that feeds them even when there are flagrant violations and treasonous acts against the citizens of that country, who will do whatever they can to preserve their jobs.
What about those people?

I can honestly say I have no idea what you are talking about.

[joefixit2]

Originally Posted by biglebowski9999

So what is your proposal? I assume you are in the "let's get rid of assault rifles" camp? I'll be honest with you, I am a gun lover and I can't give you a single reason why I *need* to have an assault rifle. I can't. Other than they are fun to shoot, like all the other guns I shoot recreationally. But do you honestly think banning the sale of assault rifles will do a damn thing? It won't. First off, any in existence up to the day this law goes into effect would be grandfathered in. Do you think a nutjob with motive isn't going to find one?

My plan? I don't have a plan. I said in the other thread that there is no one simple answer to this problem but I do know that something does need to happen about guns. Are guns the only problem? No, of course not but if doing something means it says one life, then it is worth it. But I guess based on the USA article, 1% dead is acceptable to you. And you are right, I do think there is something wrong with assault rifles, you got that right. There is no reason to have them. But you go ahead and keep talking about how I want to take all your guns away and not actually have a conversation about the whole situation. Happens every time.

[biglebowski9999]

Originally Posted by joefixit2

My plan? I don't have a plan. I said in the other thread that there is no one simple answer to this problem but I do know that something does need to happen about guns. Are guns the only problem? No, of course not but if doing something means it says one life, then it is worth it. But I guess based on the USA article, 1% dead is acceptable to you. And you are right, I do think there is something wrong with assault rifles, you got that right. There is no reason to have them. But you go ahead and keep talking about how I want to take all your guns away and not actually have a conversation about the whole situation. Happens every time.

Where did I say you said you wanted to take away all guns? I didn't. Like most people of your mindset, you're quick with the gun control solution but of course you have no clue as to how it would be done or why it should be done.

I believe the bulk of my post was spent discussing why I don't necessarily think assault rifles are as big an issue as people like you make them out to be, but I'm not surprised you ignored all of those points.

BTW, over 16,000 people are killed each year due to alcohol-related vehicle accidents (way more than guns), so I assume you have some grand plan to get rid of alcohol, too?

[joefixit2]

Originally Posted by biglebowski9999

Where did I say you said you wanted to take away all guns? I didn't.

Originally Posted by biglebowski9999

Situations like Newton are tragic beyond belief but the kneejerk "solutions" that people jump to are downright laughable. Lets get rid of the guns, but not address the root issue...that's the typical American "quick-fix" logic.

As to the solution,I have said repeatedly it is not some simple one sentence answer. People of your mindset keep asking "what is your solution" and if you don't get an answer immediately, you just rant away. This type of situation needs to have discussions with both sides but hard to do that when one side doesn't want to have any type of discussion and would rather talk about the big bad government or about "alcohol deaths" or some other type of other tragedy instead of staying on focus.

[CessnaDriver]

Originally Posted by joefixit2

How about all the stories of kids finding guns and killing either themselves or a friend? Did you forget about those? THere has never been a recorded incident where an armed civilian has actually stopped a person involved in a mass killing.

The "thousands" of current gun laws number has been thrown out there for many many years but is not based on any facts. The true number of gun laws is much much smaller: http://www.brookings.edu/es/urban/pu...s/gunbook4.pdf



What about the extremists who every time there is one of these incidents instead of wanting to reasonable talk about some types of gun control will rather get on their soap box and start shouting about how the big scary governement is going to break into their house and take all their guns. No one said they want to take all the guns away but the extremists would rather get the crowd all instigated.


The fact that you equated knowing CPR to having armed guards in a school scares me.

Unintentional causes of deaths of children under 14 is only 1% from firearms. You can check that with the CDC. Pillows kill more children then firearms, cars, poisoning, swimming pools. Firearms is 1 percent and negligence on the part of the parents is likely to blame.
Just as getting into poisons or not paying attention to the swimming pool.

Mass killings have been cut short and end up not becoming mass killings. Even recently the Oregon mall murderer encountered a law abiding citizen who drew on him, he soon offed himself. Once these kooks see they are going to get shot, they often take themselves out....


“He was working on his rifle,” said Meli. ”He kept pulling the charging handle and hitting the side.”

The break in gunfire allowed Meli to pull out his own gun, but he never took his eyes off the shooter.

“As I was going down to pull, I saw someone in the back of the Charlotte move, and I knew if I fired and missed, I could hit them,” he said.

Meli took cover inside a nearby store. He never pulled the trigger. He stands by that decision.

“I’m not beating myself up cause I didn’t shoot him,” said Meli. “I know after he saw me, I think the last shot he fired was the one he used on himself.”

------------------

Recent mass killings have been in gun free zones, so law abiding concealed carry citizens of course are not allowed to be there to make a difference.

Luby's Diner is a famous one for anti gun idiocy... a citizen left her gun in the car to obey the law, and watched her parents and others die that day because she was obeying the law.

Here's an article about where 5 people were shot before a CCW holder stopped it: http://www.kolotv.com/home/headlines/19251374.html


"According to witnesses, Villagomez at some point stopped to reload his high-capacity handgun and began shooting again when he was shot and killed by another patron - a 48-year-old Reno man who had a valid concealed weapons permit."



There are extremists on both sides but we DO have politicans talking about "assault weapon" bans and
confiscation. "Assault weapon" has no hard definition. The term "assault rifle" does and requires full auto setting.
Very very few people have full auto rifles and must go through a LOT of trouble to be licensed to have them.
But the term "assault weapon" is thrown around haphazardly for effect.
Semi-auto and standard capacity magazines does not make an assault rifle. It's a semi-auto rifle and tens of millions of American's legally and safely own them.
They did nothing wrong and the criminals are the problem.
I've no problem with background checks and we need to spend more time on the mentally ill. However I do have major problems with limiting what I can own and do own
responsibly and legally because someone else was a criminal. Might as well ban cars and knives while your at.
DUI kills tens of thousands, why are cars allowed to go over the speed limit? Ban them?




CPR saves lives.
So do firearms in the hands of law abiding citizens for self defense or defense of the innocent, even as a deterrent. It happens all the time but the media is not going to celebrate that fact.

Washington DC bigshots children enjoy a school that has armed guards as policy. Good for them but not for us?
A liquor store is often protected better then our schools!



"A grandmother in Georgia shot back when two men attempted to rob her and shot at her first."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSe6e...ature=youtu.be