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Old 07-09-2016, 02:59 PM   #101
VaultMan
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Originally Posted by adee View Post
So no Hydra Cap PF then?
Maybe
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Old 07-14-2016, 04:21 PM   #102
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I don't know what to say...I totally love and respect the ideals Cap stands for so if I was one of his villains I would love to do something to tarnish that image
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Old 05-03-2017, 11:12 AM   #103
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Marvel's statement about Cap and the controversy this storyline just continues to create among fans and retailers:

http://www.cbr.com/marvel-asks-patie...secret-empire/
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Old 05-03-2017, 11:29 AM   #104
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I started reading issue zero of Secret Empire and couldn't finish it. It's just frustrating to see this done to Cap. Mind control/false memories/etc. just knock it off Marvel.
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Old 05-03-2017, 11:58 AM   #105
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I've stated this before but the thought, editorial direction, storytelling and writing is awful and completely misguided. A Nazi mind-controlled Cap by itself is not the issue, Stan and Jack did this effectively back in Tales of Suspense. But taking Cap's character, one created by two Jewish WWII veteran creators, and doing this in this way is just Marvel turning its back on its fans, as this article points out from fan and retailer reaction.
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Old 05-03-2017, 03:22 PM   #106
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I've been really enjoying the Cap storyline and the first issue of Secret Empire wasn't bad either. I don't think it's much of a secret that there will probably be a cosmic cube reset in the near future, but it's fun to explore a version of Cap whose values have been warped by having his history altered.
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Old 05-04-2017, 08:36 AM   #107
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I'm sure at some point someone will hit the cosmic cube 'factory reset' button to bring back the status quo - but I'm hoping that someone is actually Cap himself. For me, what they are doing to him is fascinating, but I don't like the mention that he was always a Nazi agent, and the Allied forces changed the original timeline/history to win the war and bring him to heroic past we know.

But if the true essence and morality of Steve Rogers himself is able to effectively wake up and unravel what something as powerful as the cosmic cube has done to him and choose to reset to our history, it would be a brilliant testament to the character we know and love.
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Old 05-04-2017, 02:01 PM   #108
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I'm reading the base book, just finished #'s 0 & 1. I'm actually finding the story extremely unsettling & out of my comfort zone after being such a Cap fan my entire life. Still, I'm looking at it as just another story, one that eventually will go the way of the 2nd Civil War mini, Clone Saga whatever, Marvel Zombies 4, etc ... I'm reading between the lines so far, & am truly seeing it as yet another Marvel push for acceptance of their new characters, which is fine. News Flash, I think we kind of accept them Marvel.
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Old 05-04-2017, 02:05 PM   #109
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This review of Secret Empire #1 sums up my feelings about Marvel's and this story's writer's dismissive reaction to their fans' opinions, referencing Marvel's statement in my post above but focusing on this storyline, writing and, I'm happy to say, providing a nod to Cap's creators.

http://www.newsarama.com/34348-best-...batman-22.html

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Old 05-05-2017, 03:44 AM   #110
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I am obviously in the minority here, but I see absolutely no problem with this story, much the same as I had no problem with Wolverine becoming Enemy of the State, or Apocalypse's horseman, Professor X becoming Onslaught, Hal being seduced by Parallax, Jason Todd becoming Red Hood, or Jean becoming Dark Phoenix.

It actually feels a lot like when Professor X had a second team of X-Men that he led to their deaths at Krakoa. A secret history of Prof X that didn't paint him in the best light.

The cube rewrote Cap's history, and the choices he is making now aren't coming from the cap we all know and love, it's a completely different character. I see it as much the same as if instead of being raised in a loving family in a economically developed country with a nice home, that same child would have been raised in a war torn country and abused as a child. It's the ultimate nature/nurture argument.

Let's take the Parallax situation for a second.

Hal Jordan, strongest willed hero in the DCU, sees his whole city destroyed, is seduced by an external force and kills many of his own teammates, before giving willing over to evil. It had a LOT of negative opinion from the readership at the time, and took a retcon of Johns proportions to put things back in the bottle.

That I understand (if still disagree with), he willingly, in despair, helped Parallax get free and gave him a host body.

Cap has not done that. He has been fundamentally changed, down to a foundational level, and then back again. It is NOT the character we knew. (and I can appreciate some might be upset that it seems like that character didn't exist at all)

I can see though that some characters might not be pleased that the character they loved is only that person because of a situation that was forced on them, but I think there's more to the story than this - I'm pretty sure that 'reality' is a subjective term when the cube is used.

Does it mean it's permanent, of course not, does it create an interesting dynamic, yes. It might not be one that we like seeing, but that's the storytellers way! Heap crap on the character and see how they get out of the situation.

This isn't One More Day/Brand New Day where they wiped history permanently with Spider-Man - lazy storytelling at it's finest. This is a similar concept, but using a pre-existing reality altering trope.

I for one think it's interesting to see what Cap would have been like if he'd been born on the wrong side.

And everyone using the Stan and Jack argument? Respectfully, when you create a character and then let other people write them, you pass on ownership. It's not your character, and it's not theirs anymore either. Plus Stan has already said he thought the idea was great and hasn't taken any offence to it.

Maybe there is a case for saying I don't love Cap as much as some of you seem to. However I think that if someone edited the pre-inception history of my favourite characters, like DD or Nightwing or the GLC, would I feel betrayed? I really don't think so.

Edits: I've added some stuff here as I feel my points weren't coming through.
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