Captain America: Steve Rogers #1 - What Crap!

[ReplicantSavior]

I thought the spoiler was that Cap always was a bad guy. That the good guys used the cube to change Cap. Which I thought was a terrible idea. Then they added Thor to the mix as well.

The whole thing does come off like one of those "What If?" comics from back in the day.

[RichBamf]

Originally Posted by ReplicantSavior

I thought the spoiler was that Cap always was a bad guy. That the good guys used the cube to change Cap. Which I thought was a terrible idea. Then they added Thor to the mix as well.

The whole thing does come off like one of those "What If?" comics from back in the day.

Changed and changed again, from bad to good back to bad.

But I'm pretty sure that Allies losing WWII is going to be retconned away, just like Hal Jordan being evil got turned into seduced by Parallax.

I wouldn't actually be surprised if this wasn't our Cap at all, and when he came back from the dead the wrong one came back.

Basically, what I'm trying to say is that the cosmic cube is weird.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by RichBamf

He has been fundamentally changed, down to a foundational level, and then back again.

Originally Posted by RichBamf

Changed and changed again, from bad to good back to bad.

I think I kinda missed this one.
I thought the cube rewrote his history only once (at the end of Pleasant Hill)?
When did the second change happen?

[wktf]

Originally Posted by RichBamf

I am obviously in the minority here, but I see absolutely no problem with this story, much the same as I had no problem with Wolverine becoming Enemy of the State, or Apocalypse's horseman, Professor X becoming Onslaught, Hal being seduced by Parallax, Jason Todd becoming Red Hood, or Jean becoming Dark Phoenix.

It actually feels a lot like when Professor X had a second team of X-Men that he led to their deaths at Krakoa. A secret history of Prof X that didn't paint him in the best light.

The cube rewrote Cap's history, and the choices he is making now aren't coming from the cap we all know and love, it's a completely different character. I see it as much the same as if instead of being raised in a loving family in a economically developed country with a nice home, that same child would have been raised in a war torn country and abused as a child. It's the ultimate nature/nurture argument.

Let's take the Parallax situation for a second.

Hal Jordan, strongest willed hero in the DCU, sees his whole city destroyed, is seduced by an external force and kills many of his own teammates, before giving willing over to evil. It had a LOT of negative opinion from the readership at the time, and took a retcon of Johns proportions to put things back in the bottle.

That I understand (if still disagree with), he willingly, in despair, helped Parallax get free and gave him a host body.

Cap has not done that. He has been fundamentally changed, down to a foundational level, and then back again. It is NOT the character we knew. (and I can appreciate some might be upset that it seems like that character didn't exist at all)

I can see though that some characters might not be pleased that the character they loved is only that person because of a situation that was forced on them, but I think there's more to the story than this - I'm pretty sure that 'reality' is a subjective term when the cube is used.

Does it mean it's permanent, of course not, does it create an interesting dynamic, yes. It might not be one that we like seeing, but that's the storytellers way! Heap crap on the character and see how they get out of the situation.

This isn't One More Day/Brand New Day where they wiped history permanently with Spider-Man - lazy storytelling at it's finest. This is a similar concept, but using a pre-existing reality altering trope.

I for one think it's interesting to see what Cap would have been like if he'd been born on the wrong side.

And everyone using the Stan and Jack argument? Respectfully, when you create a character and then let other people write them, you pass on ownership. It's not your character, and it's not theirs anymore either. Plus Stan has already said he thought the idea was great and hasn't taken any offence to it.

Maybe there is a case for saying I don't love Cap as much as some of you seem to. However I think that if someone edited the pre-inception history of my favourite characters, like DD or Nightwing or the GLC, would I feel betrayed? I really don't think so.

Edits: I've added some stuff here as I feel my points weren't coming through.

Rich, I do see and understand your point. And your examples of Enemy of the State, Hal Jordan and Dark Phoenix, for example, are well stated. As I read this I acknowledge that I had no issue with those character changes, as sad as Hal and Jean's transformations were.

To the Stan/Jack point, it's really Joe Simon and Jack Kirby that I was referencing given their being WWII era Jewish veterans.

All I can say for myself if that this one hits me differently, hits me wrong, and feels like a betrayal in a way these others didn't and likely others in the future will not. I'm of the same feeling as the review writer whose review I posted earlier.

It's not rational, it's emotional. It's not the end of the world, but it still feels wrong to me.

[risingstar]

Originally Posted by wktf

Rich, I do see and understand your point. And your examples of Enemy of the State, Hal Jordan and Dark Phoenix, for example, are well stated. As I read this I acknowledge that I had no issue with those character changes, as sad as Hal and Jean's transformations were.

To the Stan/Jack point, it's really Joe Simon and Jack Kirby that I was referencing given their being WWII era Jewish veterans.

All I can say for myself if that this one hits me differently, hits me wrong, and feels like a betrayal in a way these others didn't and likely others in the future will not. I'm of the same feeling as the review writer whose review I posted earlier.

It's not rational, it's emotional. It's not the end of the world, but it still feels wrong to me.

I find myself somewhere between Rich and yourself. On one side of the argument, you have the general idea that this is little more than a Cap story and that thoughts on this should largely be confined to that (i.e., good story vs bad story). On the other side, there's the betrayal to the Jewish creator's angle. I can certainly see the merit to that too.

As a Jew living in North America, I'm more than used to seeing the general minimization or dismissiveness of the Jewish-life-experience so I rarely allow myself to be offended by it. I can see the "why should I care just because you care?" argument to this. It's quite human, actually. I do not expect, let alone demand, this space from others to accommodate my feelings as far more often than not, I'd likely be setting myself up for further disappointment. Life is too short for that. In the end, I just won't buy the book and move on.

I felt quite tempted to blather on further about the potential messages this sends about the modern times, diversity in general, and humanity, but it would likely serve to invite even further controversy, defensiveness, and misunderstanding. I just won't buy the book. My sense is that my rights generally begin and end with my choices, only.

[RichBamf]

Originally Posted by Léon

I think I kinda missed this one.
I thought the cube rewrote his history only once (at the end of Pleasant Hill)?
When did the second change happen?

Sorry buddy, that's me being ineloquent. From our perspective, he has gone through three changes that we are seeing.

Original Hydra, good period we all know and now Hydra cap. Even though the 'change' is only singular.

[RichBamf]

Originally Posted by wktf

Rich, I do see and understand your point. And your examples of Enemy of the State, Hal Jordan and Dark Phoenix, for example, are well stated. As I read this I acknowledge that I had no issue with those character changes, as sad as Hal and Jean's transformations were.

To the Stan/Jack point, it's really Joe Simon and Jack Kirby that I was referencing given their being WWII era Jewish veterans.

All I can say for myself if that this one hits me differently, hits me wrong, and feels like a betrayal in a way these others didn't and likely others in the future will not. I'm of the same feeling as the review writer whose review I posted earlier.

It's not rational, it's emotional. It's not the end of the world, but it still feels wrong to me.

Joe, believe me my friend, I can appreciate your opinion as a lifetime Cap fan. I think I have a lot more understanding and respect for you and people like RS and Jerry having that reaction simply because you are eloquent and patient enough to explain the reasons why - lets face it when people do that and have valid reasons rational debate is much more rational.

I genuinely don't know how I would feel if one of my favourites got history altered in the same way.

What I never will understand with is the people who soapbox and make a stand. The "I'll never read Marvel again" crowd. These things are always cycles. Comics are way too serialised to not snap back to the status quo.

I'm preaching to the choir here, I know.

[RichBamf]

Originally Posted by risingstar

I find myself somewhere between Rich and yourself. On one side of the argument, you have the general idea that this is little more than a Cap story and that all thoughts on this should be confined to that (i.e., good story vs bad story). On the other side, there's the betrayal to the Jewish creator's angle. I can certainly see the merit to that too.

As a Jew living in North America, I'm more than used to seeing the general minimization or dismissiveness of the Jewish-life-experience so I rarely allow myself to be offended by it. I can see the "why should I care just because you care?" argument to this. It's quite human, actually. I do not expect, let alone demand, this space from others to accommodate my feelings as far more often than not, I'd likely be setting myself up for further disappointment. Life is too short for that. In the end, I just won't buy the book and move on.

I felt quite tempted to blather on further about the potential messages this sends about the modern times, diversity in general, and humanity, but it would likely serve to invite even further controversy, defensiveness, and misunderstanding. I just won't buy the book. My sense is that my rights generally begin and end with my choices, only.

Ha! I didn't see your post before I replied to Joe. I genuinely think that is the most healthy way to be.

You tried it, didn't like it and won't support it, that's what being a fully formed human should be.

[risingstar]

Originally Posted by RichBamf

Ha! I didn't see your post before I replied to Joe. I genuinely think that is the most healthy way to be.

You tried it, didn't like it and won't support it, that's what being a fully formed human should be.

Since I cannot control Disney comics editorial, that's pretty much all I can do in the end, to pass on it. I may still publicly express an opinion on the storyline but that's as far as I will go. However, I'd like to add one other thought on this as it might add some perspective.

A friend of mine who knew I was an Alex Ross fan once told me that there was a sale on Alex Ross signed lithos at a local comic shop. He pointed out this beautiful looking one with WWII Cap fighting Nazis. While I can certainly appreciate the stellar artwork, I told him I would pass on it. He seemed surprised as it clearly was a stunning piece and it had this obvious classic Kirby vibe to it. My friend just didn't get where I was coming from. I then explained that it had several swastikas on the image and that I preferred to not have visiting family members or friends suddenly prompted to thinkng about the senseless slaughter of millions of Jews during the holocaust every time they saw those swastikas. If I'm to be brutally honest, that's where my thoughts go whenever I see a swastika. The symbol holds tremendous meaning for me. Had Hitler had the opportunity to do so, his final solution insanity would have wiped out my entire family line without a second thought. My friend then said, "But it's Cap fighting Nazis". Again, he just didn't get it, and that's fine. I passed on the Ross Cap Nazi piece and moved on.

Incidentally, I ended up buying the Ross/Romita signed Spidey vs Goblin litho which looks outstanding.

[RichBamf]

Originally Posted by risingstar

Since I cannot control Disney comics editorial, that's pretty much all I can do in the end, to pass on it. I may still publicly express an opinion on the storyline but that's as far as I will go. However, I'd like to add one other thought on this as it might add some perspective.

A friend of mine who knew I was an Alex Ross fan once told me that there was a sale on Alex Ross signed lithos at a local comic shop. He pointed out this beautiful looking one with WWII Cap fighting Nazis. While I can certainly appreciate the stellar artwork, I told him I would pass on it. He seemed surprised as it clearly was a stunning piece and it had this obvious Kirby vibe to it. My friend just didn't get where I was coming from. I then explained that it had several swastikas on the image and that I preferred to not have visiting family members or friends suddenly think about the senseless slaughter of millions of Jews during the holocaust every time they saw those swastikas. If I'm to be brutally honest, that's where my thoughts go whenever I see a swastika. Had Hitler had the opportunity to do so, his insanity would have wiped out my entire family line without a second thought. My friend then said, "But it's Cap fighting Nazis". Again, he just didn't get it, and that's fine. I passed on the Ross Cap Nazi piece and moved on.

Incidentally, I ended up buying the Ross/Romita signed Spidey vs Goblin litho which looks outstanding.

I totally agree with that, which only furthers my point about decisions based on reason and emotion together.

Similarly, I'm reminded of the conversations years ago when the Bowen Red Skull statue came out and certain fans wanted Swastikas on the sculpt for authenticity.

I said then and I'll say now I will never display anything with a swastika on it in my home. I can appreciate it is 'just a symbol' to many and it means various things to different cultures, but as the grandson of a Jewish woman (even though I wouldn't identify as religious myself), and the grandson of a British soldier that saw Belsen three days after it was 'liberated' and saw the effect it had on my grandfather until he died, I can't in any way condone bringing that into my house.

Maybe that is a passionate, flawed reasoning on my part, but it's something that doesn't feel right to me.