Justice League *SPOILERS from Pg 59*

[built2shred]

Originally Posted by Hellboy

Both Man of Steel & Batman V Superman had great stories in my opinion with a hell of a lot more depth than most films in this genre. Plenty of dramatic moments and solid character development in between those explosions.

Personally I love Snyder’s style and appreciate his serious take on the material as opposed to the more conventional comedic and often times cartoonish approach. That’s cool if others don’t agree, to each their own. He’s directed 3 of my favorite comic book films including the two mentioned above along with Watchmen so I hope we haven’t seen the last of him tackling this kind of material. That said I wouldn’t be surprised if this ends up being it for him given the amount of venom spit his way.

BvS story was kind of week IMO, it boiled down to this, Bruce Wayne's building is destroyed during the Superman and Zod fight, he got pissed wanted to kill Superman but couldn't because their mothers shared the same name. Then the worse casting of Lex ever decided to mix his blood with Zod to create Doomsday which Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman would have to kill, movie over...

The story jumped all over the place and very little depth was given to any part of the story. The extended version of the movie did help correct some of that but Snyder tried to cram way to much into one movie.

I like the tone of the DC's movies being more serious but if your going to do that you need to have a solid story and edit it correctly. Having to wait for the Blu-ray to come out in order to see it properly edited was a failure big time on Snyders part.

[Wizard]

Obviously, objectivity holds no place in cultural arts. When it comes to the comic book movie genre, I like the Marvel movies, but I love the Snyder DC movies - Watchmen, MOS, and BVS.

I've been reading DC and Marvel comic books every week from about 1979-2012. Not so much these days as where I grew tired of the every couple of years re-boot of each universe, although I did enjoy the DC 52 coupling of Superman/Wonder Woman. And my favorite comic book character of them all - Superman.

Why?

Because he was the most powerful being on the planet and he chose to do good with those powers. I was an impressionable kid. So, enter the movies starting in my childhood.

Donner brings us Reeves as Superman - "you will believe a man can fly." As a kid - cool. As an adult today, the films are unwatchable for me. Sure, there are some moments that still hold up as cool, most memorable for me, Superman II when Superman regains his powers and shows up outside the Daily Planet to fight Zod. However, the comedic elements of the film and Clark's "hayseed" presentation left me cold.

Then comes Superman Returns, which should have been retitled Superman V because it was a love letter to the Donner movies. Outside of the exceptional airplane rescue sequence, the film left me cold.

Then comes Zach Snyder and MOS. As we all can recall, the trailers left us salivating for the film's release. The Zimmer score. Superman walking across the ice into the sun. The shaking ground. Liftoff.

I was there opening weekend, and my ridiculous hype and expectations were not met, but Snyder came close. I loved the characterization of both, Clark and Superman. I had only one real complaint - the way Snyder played the Jonathan sacrifice scene. There were just too many outs for Clark to save his father. For such a plot point to work, there had to have been a truly no-win scenario (with apologies to Kirk). Yet, MOS went to the top of my list for favorite Superman adaptation.

BVS continued Clark's journey as he knew as little about his place in the world as the world knew its place in a world occupied by a Superman. This was a far superior storyline than showing a content, go-lucky Superman with no issues of his own, only there to serve the heroic needs of a fickle populace. And on top of that, Snyder delivers a Batman that was more terrifying to criminals than any other film adaptation Batman we've seen. You put Snyder's Batman in a room with Burton's and Nolan's. Who walks out? But I digress (any Peter David fans).

I'm sadden by the realization of JL most likely being Snyder's end with involvement in the DCEU; specifically Superman. I want Snyder's journey with this character to reach its realization in MOS 2. Instead, we'll probably get a Marvel-ous interpretation of the character that will make the many DCEU critics and DC "purists" happy.

Would Marvel fanboys go screaming into the night if Marvel were to hire Snyder for a Marvel project? A revenge move in light of Brian Michael Bendis' move to DC.

Hmm, Fantastic Four directed by Zach Snyder...

Apologies for the long rant.

[Hellboy]

Originally Posted by built2shred

BvS story was kind of week IMO, it boiled down to this, Bruce Wayne's building is destroyed during the Superman and Zod fight, he got pissed wanted to kill Superman but couldn't because their mothers shared the same name. Then the worse casting of Lex ever decided to mix his blood with Zod to create Doomsday which Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman would have to kill, movie over...

The story jumped all over the place and very little depth was given to any part of the story. The extended version of the movie did help correct some of that but Snyder tried to cram way to much into one movie.

I like the tone of the DC's movies being more serious but if your going to do that you need to have a solid story and edit it correctly. Having to wait for the Blu-ray to come out in order to see it properly edited was a failure big time on Snyders part.

That’s a pretty massive oversimplification of Bruce’s motives. You’re leaving out his current state of mind. He’s been immersed in darkness for years, suffered countless personal losses and battled a lot of crazies in his tenure as Batman. For good or bad he’s been driven to extremes before Superman even comes on the scene. He’s in a dark place. Alfred alludes to as much multiple times through the film, but he knows ultimately Bruce is going to do what Bruce wants to do.

As for the building you’re referring to, it was filled with friends and employees he felt responsible for. Losing them in a manner that made him feel completely powerless isn’t a position he’s accustomed to being in, but he’s been there before.. e.g. the death of Robin and it enrages him. He feels a responsibility to deal with Superman because any one man with that much power is a threat to humanity. In his current state he sees things in black and white rather than being objective. Alfred - “The fever, the rage, the feeling of powerlessness that turns good men, cruel”

The “Martha” problem so many seem to have is one of the most ridiculous overreactions I can think of in a film I’ve ever seen. The fact that their mother’s name is the same isn’t really the point. It’s just the catalyst that snaps Bruce out of his current toxic mindset because it resonates with him. For the first time he sees Superman as Clark, a man who wants to save his mother. Not some all powerful super-being with no ideals. It emphasizes the duality of these two characters. His mind was clouded until this and for the first time it becomes clear to him they’ve been pitted against one another from the beginning masterfully by Luthor.

As far as the casting of Lex is concerned, I’ll somewhat agree with you here. Eisenberg was miscast. More importantly the choice to portray Lex as borderline psychotic was completely out of character IMO. He’s not the Joker, he’s a calm, cool and calculating master manipulator that plays others against themselves like he’s playing a game of chess. Fortunately I think that was conveyed rather well in the intricacies of his detailed plans.

As for the story jumping all over the place, that’s a problem in the heavily edited theatrical version only. The Ultimate Edition rectifies the flow problem brought on by studio meddling with a Director’s vision. The layered narrative plays out a bit like a mystery as the viewer is meant to put the pieces of Lex’s plan together the same way our protagonists eventually do.

[RichBamf]

Originally Posted by built2shred

In the smallville fight he saved the military guys several times, when Metropolis was getting a beat down he was on the other side of the earth trying to destroy the machine that was causing it.

The damage and deaths in metropolis was pretty much over by the time he got there. And when did get there Zod attacked him, sure they damaged a bunch of buildings during the fight but from the scenes the buildings looked empty. The only time they came across anyone was at that train station where Supes had to kill Zod to stop him from killing a innocent family. Even in that scene he didn't want to kill Zod, he begged Zod to stop and when he had no choice but to kill him it tore him up inside.

As for his Dad's death, Remember from a very young age Clark's Dad had kept telling him over and over that he had to stay hidden, that he couldn't show the world what he could do because people would be afraid of him, the government would come after him....

In that scene Clark was only about 18 given the conversation in the car as it sounded like he just graduated high school, all he knew at that time was that he was a Alien and nothing else.

His dad pretty much installed a lot a fear into Clark about his secret so I understand the scene.

The reason I like MOS is that it shows that he's flawed like everyone else. The scenes from Krypton shows that race was not perfect even with it's genetic engineering of their babies, Zod was proof of that. So why do people think Superman has to be this "Jesus" like being that ALWAYS makes the perfect decisions and never makes any mistakes?... That all he does is go around saving kittens from trees all day....

Totally agree. It was clear that Clark could have and should have saved his dad, but Jonathan’s paranoia about him revealing his abilities is a big part of what the movie is all about, and explains a lot of Clark’s motivations across the two films so far.

I still think MOS should have shown him saving a few more people directly, I genuinely believe that would have made a huge difference, but I think Jor-El’s unrealistic expectations vs Jonathan Kent’s over protectiveness is a key dynamic that shapes Clark as a hero. He has to overcome both those things.

Having Clark have two perfect dads isnt realistic, having two flawed dads make the inevitable hero he becomes more meaningful.

[Matches Malone]

Originally Posted by Hellboy

That’s a pretty massive oversimplification of Bruce’s motives. You’re leaving out his current state of mind. He’s been immersed in darkness for years, suffered countless personal losses and battled a lot of crazies in his tenure as Batman. For good or bad he’s been driven to extremes before Superman even comes on the scene. He’s in a dark place. Alfred alludes to as much multiple times through the film, but he knows ultimately Bruce is going to do what Bruce wants to do.

As for the building you’re referring to, it was filled with friends and employees he felt responsible for. Losing them in a manner that made him feel completely powerless isn’t a position he’s accustomed to being in, but he’s been there before.. e.g. the death of Robin and it enrages him. He feels a responsibility to deal with Superman because any one man with that much power is a threat to humanity. In his current state he sees things in black and white rather than being objective. Alfred - “The fever, the rage, the feeling of powerlessness that turns good men, cruel”

The “Martha” problem so many seem to have is one of the most ridiculous overreactions I can think of in a film I’ve ever seen. The fact that their mother’s name is the same isn’t really the point. It’s just the catalyst that snaps Bruce out of his current toxic mindset because it resonates with him. For the first time he sees Superman as Clark, a man who wants to save his mother. Not some all powerful super-being with no ideals. It emphasizes the duality of these two characters. His mind was clouded until this and for the first time it becomes clear to him they’ve been pitted against one another from the beginning masterfully by Luthor.

As far as the casting of Lex is concerned, I’ll somewhat agree with you here. Eisenberg was miscast. More importantly the choice to portray Lex as borderline psychotic was completely out of character IMO. He’s not the Joker, he’s a calm, cool and calculating master manipulator that plays others against themselves like he’s playing a game of chess. Fortunately I think that was conveyed rather well in the intricacies of his detailed plans.

As for the story jumping all over the place, that’s a problem in the heavily edited theatrical version only. The Ultimate Edition rectifies the flow problem brought on by studio meddling with a Director’s vision. The layered narrative plays out a bit like a mystery as the viewer is meant to put the pieces of Lex’s plan together the same way our protagonists eventually do.

Perfect post Hellboy. Sums up my feelings on BvS, and the simplistic complainants about the Martha scene perfectly.

For the record I think that the Marta moment is pretty inspired and beautiful. That said, I do really think that Snyder made one fatal flaw with the resolution to their fight. Had he depicted Clark actively researching Batman, finding out he was Bruce Wayne, and making the disclosure about his mothers name in a tactical way to “win the fight“ , or at least get Batman to save her, it may have been more digestible . As it played out it was OK but the fact that he said save “Martha”, in reference to his mom, didn’t feel as natural as it could have as so few of us refer to our mothers by their first name.

[Matches Malone]

Originally Posted by RichBamf

Totally agree. It was clear that Clark could have and should have saved his dad, but Jonathan’s paranoia about him revealing his abilities is a big part of what the movie is all about, and explains a lot of Clark’s motivations across the two films so far.

I still think MOS should have shown him saving a few more people directly, I genuinely believe that would have made a huge difference, but I think Jor-El’s unrealistic expectations vs Jonathan Kent’s over protectiveness is a key dynamic that shapes Clark as a hero. He has to overcome both those things.

Having Clark have two perfect dads is realistic, having two flawed dads make the inevitable hero he becomes more meaningful.

Another post I agree with completely. I found a few small things that really took away from Clark’s heroism in MoS. Visuals that make him appear callous like destroying the logging truck, Supes nonchalantly flying over the tanker Zod threw at him allowing that parking structure to be destroyed and wrecking that drone as he did worked to undermine the story of his heroism they were telling.

In all honesty he if they had shown Clark actively trying to minimize casualties, and failing, it would have made his ultimate decision to kill Zod that much more pointed and quite frankly digestible, for the general audience. It was honestly the difference between a fresh and rotten ranking on rotten tomatoes.

[Gothamite]

Originally Posted by Hellboy

The “Martha” problem so many seem to have is one of the most ridiculous overreactions I can think of in a film I’ve ever seen. The fact that their mother’s name is the same isn’t really the point. It’s just the catalyst that snaps Bruce out of his current toxic mindset because it resonates with him. For the first time he sees Superman as Clark, a man who wants to save his mother. Not some all powerful super-being with no ideals. It emphasizes the duality of these two characters. His mind was clouded until this and for the first time it becomes clear to him they’ve been pitted against one another from the beginning masterfully by Luthor.

As someone who didn't like BvS (I didn't hate it, but I wish it had been much shorter), I thought people picking on the "Martha" scene was misguided. It was probably the most emotionally "real" moment in the movie. Your analysis of the scene is exemplary.

[Josh-a-tron]

Originally Posted by Hellboy

That’s a pretty massive oversimplification of Bruce’s motives. You’re leaving out his current state of mind. He’s been immersed in darkness for years, suffered countless personal losses and battled a lot of crazies in his tenure as Batman. For good or bad he’s been driven to extremes before Superman even comes on the scene. He’s in a dark place. Alfred alludes to as much multiple times through the film, but he knows ultimately Bruce is going to do what Bruce wants to do.

As for the building you’re referring to, it was filled with friends and employees he felt responsible for. Losing them in a manner that made him feel completely powerless isn’t a position he’s accustomed to being in, but he’s been there before.. e.g. the death of Robin and it enrages him. He feels a responsibility to deal with Superman because any one man with that much power is a threat to humanity. In his current state he sees things in black and white rather than being objective. Alfred - “The fever, the rage, the feeling of powerlessness that turns good men, cruel”

Okay this is where the people who like BvS confuse me. So what you and many others are saying is that it's okay for Bruce to kill and try to kill Superman in the movie because he is emotionally unstable due to the years of darkness that has surround him and the death of robin, but that doesn't jive with what's happening in the film. If Bruce has gone off the deep end and is now willing to kill, which he shows by murdering Lex's henchmen and trying to kill Superman, then why is the Joker still alive? You can't have it both ways, either he is or is not now killing, and if he is then The Joker should not and would not be alive because even with all the destruction Superman's fight caused, that single maniacal clown has killed hundreds and maybe even thousands by himself and a robin too boot as shown in the film. Also, it shows a lack of understanding. A war torn Batman would know what it's like to have collateral damage due to the life they live and the battles they fight against forces that do not care about the people around them. To have Batman basically fully blame Superman for the entire thing and show no thought other than wanting to kill him and not only that be played like a piano by Luthor tells me that the story in the film wasn't thought through thoroughly and did not have as much respect for the source material as it should have.

Originally Posted by Hellboy

The “Martha” problem so many seem to have is one of the most ridiculous overreactions I can think of in a film I’ve ever seen. The fact that their mother’s name is the same isn’t really the point. It’s just the catalyst that snaps Bruce out of his current toxic mindset because it resonates with him. For the first time he sees Superman as Clark, a man who wants to save his mother. Not some all powerful super-being with no ideals. It emphasizes the duality of these two characters. His mind was clouded until this and for the first time it becomes clear to him they’ve been pitted against one another from the beginning masterfully by Luthor.

I don't find it to be an overreaction, but more a reaction to poor writing and the over acting that the scene uses. His reaction is a little ridiculous, especially for a man that was just about to plunge a spear into the chest of the man saying it. Either he's committed to his cause or he isn't but to suddenly go off the rails as he does at the mere mention of his mother's name is crazy and even a bit humorous. If Superman had said they're going to kill my mother, and Bruce knowing what that feels like stopped his rampage and saw Superman for what he is without the ridiculous dialogue the scene probably would be more palatable. I also disagree with the "masterful" plot that Luthor put into place, it's more like if you ignore the fact that Batman is a master detective it works.

Originally Posted by Hellboy

As far as the casting of Lex is concerned, I’ll somewhat agree with you here. Eisenberg was miscast. More importantly the choice to portray Lex as borderline psychotic was completely out of character IMO. He’s not the Joker, he’s a calm, cool and calculating master manipulator that plays others against themselves like he’s playing a game of chess. Fortunately I think that was conveyed rather well in the intricacies of his detailed plans.

I agree with every thing you said but the last bit.

Originally Posted by Hellboy

As for the story jumping all over the place, that’s a problem in the heavily edited theatrical version only. The Ultimate Edition rectifies the flow problem brought on by studio meddling with a Director’s vision. The layered narrative plays out a bit like a mystery as the viewer is meant to put the pieces of Lex’s plan together the same way our protagonists eventually do.

I honestly have so much contempt for the film that I didn't bother with the ultimate edition, whether it fixes the jumpy editing or not it won't fix what they did to the characters and and it doesn't fix the lack of depth in character development, which they needed to go into to explain their actions and why they are so far from the characters we've known since the mid-60's.

I'm really hoping Justice league does a better job at the portrayals but I have no faith in Zack Snyder, so I'm hoping who ever takes the reigns after this has a bit more love for the comics than he did.

[demonhunter]

Justice League is hitting cinemas in just 3 days. Very excited and looking forward to watch it with my co-workers. In anticipation of the first Justice League movie in history, I've put together a short intro & history of the Justice League video. Together with brief intro about Darkseid too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NfOIZkpIuLA

[built2shred]

Originally Posted by Hellboy

That’s a pretty massive oversimplification of Bruce’s motives. You’re leaving out his current state of mind. He’s been immersed in darkness for years, suffered countless personal losses and battled a lot of crazies in his tenure as Batman. For good or bad he’s been driven to extremes before Superman even comes on the scene. He’s in a dark place. Alfred alludes to as much multiple times through the film, but he knows ultimately Bruce is going to do what Bruce wants to do.

As for the building you’re referring to, it was filled with friends and employees he felt responsible for. Losing them in a manner that made him feel completely powerless isn’t a position he’s accustomed to being in, but he’s been there before.. e.g. the death of Robin and it enrages him. He feels a responsibility to deal with Superman because any one man with that much power is a threat to humanity. In his current state he sees things in black and white rather than being objective. Alfred - “The fever, the rage, the feeling of powerlessness that turns good men, cruel”

That's one of my biggest gripes about BvS, they tried to put to much into one film, unless your a hardcore fan of Batman your not going to know what those glimpses they show even mean. A lot of it was very cryptic and because they were trying to cram it into one movie it made no sense to anyone who hasn't been reading comic books for the last 30 years.

Also as I explained in another post, Superman wasn't even in metropolis when Bruce's building was destroyed. By the time Superman got there everyone was pretty much evacuated or dead.

Bottom line is the movie had so much stuff crammed into it, the audience could not get invested into the characters. Everything was jumping around so fast it barely made any sense. We go from flashes of Bruce's past robins to weird dreams about Superman being a dictator to visions of other superhero's, it had no back story to any of it, unless of course your a hardcore comic fan.

The “Martha” problem so many seem to have is one of the most ridiculous overreactions I can think of in a film I’ve ever seen. The fact that their mother’s name is the same isn’t really the point. It’s just the catalyst that snaps Bruce out of his current toxic mindset because it resonates with him. For the first time he sees Superman as Clark, a man who wants to save his mother. Not some all powerful super-being with no ideals. It emphasizes the duality of these two characters. His mind was clouded until this and for the first time it becomes clear to him they’ve been pitted against one another from the beginning masterfully by Luthor.

The whole thing with the Martha name was just really poorly written.... They would of been better off just having Clark say "You have to save my mother" in his weaken state. I mean who calls their mother by their first name? The truth is, Snyder thought he was being really clever pointing out they both had mothers with the name Martha but it just came across as silly.

As far as the casting of Lex is concerned, I’ll somewhat agree with you here. Eisenberg was miscast. More importantly the choice to portray Lex as borderline psychotic was completely out of character IMO. He’s not the Joker, he’s a calm, cool and calculating master manipulator that plays others against themselves like he’s playing a game of chess. Fortunately I think that was conveyed rather well in the intricacies of his detailed plans.

As for the story jumping all over the place, that’s a problem in the heavily edited theatrical version only. The Ultimate Edition rectifies the flow problem brought on by studio meddling with a Director’s vision. The layered narrative plays out a bit like a mystery as the viewer is meant to put the pieces of Lex’s plan together the same way our protagonists eventually do.

This just proves my point they tried to cram to much into one movie. Snyder got over ambitious and missed the mark of making a great movie.

DC should of made a solo Batman movie explaining his back story before BvS, that way they could concentrate more on Superman in BvS so they could get the audience to connect more with Clark, so when he dies in the end it's more emotional. They way Snyder did the movie pretty much nobody cared that Superman died. The audience never connected with the characters, that's the fault of the writers and the director.