Gouken

[ZenLogikos]

Originally Posted by Joppula

Then here is some SF5 concept art that may interest you.

Loving all the "masters" and SF1 alums. Good to see them get some love, when they appeared all but forgotten by Capcom.

Love that he made Lee a drunken master. I'd kill to see him in SFV.

[Joppula]

Originally Posted by ZenLogikos

I'm not sure it's still considered just a "different" appearance, as much as it may just be retconned to no longer be a canon appearance. Just like the beads actually coming from Goutetsu.

I've read that Gouken spirit info on SRK. Not sure where they're getting it or if it's canon. I haven't beaten arcade since vanilla IV. Even if it is canon info, that doesn't necessarily mean his spirit reformed with a different appearance, unless they specifically show that change. Have they?

As far as I know Gouken is alive an has returned.

The attack from Akuma (or Gouken's defense against that attack) basically made him appear dead, as his body lay dormant (and aging), his soul shielded.

But in SF4 he's awakened, and intends to seal the Satsui No Hado.

Canonically he was never actually dead, and he's back.

The Udon comics implied that Gouken appeared at the end of the SF2 tournament to challenge Akuma and basically save Ryu. The Dhalsim stepped in and saved Ryu from the cracking island and lava via Yoga Teleport.

The encounter left Ryu groggy and wondering 'if he'd just seen a spirit/ghost'.

But being that SF4 was to follow SF2, we know it was not a spirit/ghost, but was in fact the real deal.

Not sure of his presence in SF5, but concept art exists of him as well. I wouldn't be surprised to see him eventually.

But I'm a little out of the loop with the comics at the moment (soon to catch up ). So more has probably developed with him there.

[Joppula]

Originally Posted by ZenLogikos

Loving all the "masters" and SF1 alums. Good to see them get some love, when they appeared all but forgotten by Capcom.

Love that he made Lee a drunken master. I'd kill to see him in SFV.

Next year is the SF1 anniversary. We'll probably see some good stuff with them. Fingers crossed!

[Joppula]

Originally Posted by strife87

the new look for Ken has really grown on me, i wasnt a huge fan initially but now i dig it a lot more.

and i like the new violent joppula! does he one day transform to shin joppula, and eventually goblin jop?

This form emerges in the presence of ComicBookGuy!

[Joppula]

Originally Posted by theghostinside

I saw that art along with Gouki, Haggar, and Sodom and freaked out.

I hope those characters make it in the game. They are four of my favorite characters from all the Street Fighter/ Final Fight universe.

Agree so much!

[Alpha_Flight]

Originally Posted by ZenLogikos

I'm not sure it's still considered just a "different" appearance, as much as it may just be retconned to no longer be a canon appearance. Just like the beads actually coming from Goutetsu.

I've read that Gouken spirit info on SRK. Not sure where they're getting it or if it's canon. I haven't beaten arcade since vanilla IV. Even if it is canon info, that doesn't necessarily mean his spirit reformed with a different appearance, unless they specifically show that change. Have they?

Well SF4 never actually said how or why Gouken "came back". All that was said is that he emptied his soul from his body with the Power of Nothingness, but his body definitely got the Shun Goku Satsu treatment. The newest Street Fighter Unlimited arc from UDON states that he is in fact a spirit that has physical form (As his old body is still in the grave). I feel pretty safe assuming that UDON has gotten direction from Capcom on this, as the new run is supposed to tie into SFV.

At any rate, I myself (Yes this is directed toward you Jop LOL) always thought that Gouken coming back was pretty lame. I compare it to Thomas and Martha Wayne coming back from the dead. Kind of kills the character of Batman (Or in this case Ryu). Ryu had no problem dispelling the dark hadou without the help of Gouken in SF3 as Oro was the one who helped him reach that next level (SF3 Ryu is pretty much "Master" Ryu), so I never have seen the point in bringing him back. Capcom brought him back just because, his inclusion was purely fan service that held no real merit story wise.

Just my two.

[Joppula]

Originally Posted by Alpha_Flight

Well SF4 never actually said how or why Gouken "came back". All that was said is that he emptied his soul from his body with the Power of Nothingness, but his body definitely got the Shun Goku Satsu treatment. The newest Street Fighter Unlimited arc from UDON states that he is in fact a spirit that has physical form (As his old body is still in the grave). I feel pretty safe assuming that UDON has gotten direction from Capcom on this, as the new run is supposed to tie into SFV.

At any rate, I myself (Yes this is directed toward you Jop LOL) always thought that Gouken coming back was pretty lame. I compare it to Thomas and Martha Wayne coming back from the dead. Kind of kills the character of Batman (Or in this case Ryu). Ryu had no problem dispelling the dark hadou without the help of Gouken in SF3 as Oro was the one who helped him reach that next level (SF3 Ryu is pretty much "Master" Ryu), so I never have seen the point in bringing him back. Capcom brought him back just because, his inclusion was purely fan service that held no real merit story wise.

Just my two.

I won't disagree with you regarding Udon. I love their stories and feel that they do work in conjunction with Capcom to create accurate stories.

So if his spirit was able to manifest itself a New body, that's pretty awesome imho, and speaks volumes regarding Gouken's level of power.

Where we disagree (in this instance) is bringing him back. For a few reasons.

1) Ryu's story (unlike Bruce Wayne) is not solely driven by the death of Gouken. He's been wandering and fighting for self improvement since before Akuma & Gouken existed in SF lore. Ryu will be the wandering World Warrior with or without those guys.

2) If anyone (including Gen) can survive the Raging Demon, it should be Gouken, the Master of Mu.

3) He's such a unique character, he adds so much to the game it'd be a travesty not to include him.

4) Bringing him back now, to help Ryu complete his training perfectly transitions Ryu into SF3 Ryu. It really works well. Even Gouken's moves are meant to make the transition convincing. Gouken introduced the Parry in SF4, Ryu gets it in SF5/SF3. And Gouken's FA is Ryu's Donkey kick from SF3.

If we were talking Go Hibiki (as cool as he is) I'd be inclined to agree with you. Vengeance and Evil intent were Dan's complete mission at onset

Chun Li's Dad, same deal.

And Gotetsu would be completely pointless and redundant with the presence of Gouken.

So it's not like I'd support whoever coming back, but I think in terms of Story and Gameplay Gouken really works.

That's my take.

[ZenLogikos]

Originally Posted by Alpha_Flight

Well SF4 never actually said how or why Gouken "came back". All that was said is that he emptied his soul from his body with the Power of Nothingness, but his body definitely got the Shun Goku Satsu treatment. The newest Street Fighter Unlimited arc from UDON states that he is in fact a spirit that has physical form (As his old body is still in the grave). I feel pretty safe assuming that UDON has gotten direction from Capcom on this, as the new run is supposed to tie into SFV.

At any rate, I myself (Yes this is directed toward you Jop LOL) always thought that Gouken coming back was pretty lame. I compare it to Thomas and Martha Wayne coming back from the dead. Kind of kills the character of Batman (Or in this case Ryu). Ryu had no problem dispelling the dark hadou without the help of Gouken in SF3 as Oro was the one who helped him reach that next level (SF3 Ryu is pretty much "Master" Ryu), so I never have seen the point in bringing him back. Capcom brought him back just because, his inclusion was purely fan service that held no real merit story wise.

Just my two.

Thanks for the input. Jopp's post (#2452) summed up my current understanding, as I don't read Udon much, and they've been questionable as far as canon goes. Maybe that's changing, as you say.

As for retconning Gouken, I'm obviously a fan, and I like the brother angle with Akuma, which could be expanded upon. But as a fan of all "masters", Oro is right up there as well.

I edited the rest of what I wrote because Jopp's recent post (just above) summed up my feelings nicely.

[theghostinside]

Well as alpha said in the new udon comics it shows Goukens spirit floating like a flame over his dead body.

Retsu then is able to help the ghost/flame manifest itself into what Gouken looks like in IV through prayer and meditation. In the last issue Gouken tells Ryu he doesn't have much time left and trains with him one final time.

He then informs Ryu of Oro saying that he will help him on his next stage of training.

While we didn't see Gouken fade away into nothing he did refer to it being the last time he would train Ryu and not having much time left.

I think Goukens time in the story is over, but that is just my thoughts regarding the current story arc.

[Alpha_Flight]

Man I love the passion for SF on this forum. You're a good group! Don't get to vent my nerdiness much so this is awesome. All your points are valid Jop. Don't get me wrong, Gouken as a playable character is awesome and looking at it from your point of view definetely makes sense