The Mandalorian

[qz33]

The Internet you say...
Sounds like desperate fanboys circle jerking.

Especially claiming George is involved..

[qz33]

Ah yes sounds as though retcon is in full force...

[ZenLogikos]

I like Daisy. Too bad she played an awful character in three awful movies.

We'll see how she does in a last-ditch effort, one-off project (no confidence to commit to a trilogy any more), but in a story being ripped from the EU, that should have gone to Luke all along.

Meanwhile, Disney, having completely sh!t the bed with the ST, by totally discarding the EU... NOW nearly every project is full of EU characters and storylines and timelines.

THAT, and the coming World Between Worlds concept (Filoni DID consult Lucas on) during the "New Republic" timeframe, does indeed look like it will enable Disney to MCU-multiverse the sh!t out of the "First Order" and "New Jedi Order" timeframe if they see fit, depending on the success of Daisy's project.

There are nine time periods now designated by Disney. I'll gladly watch anything from the first seven. The last two have to earn it, since all Disney effectively accomplished with the ST, was crapping on/killing off/replacing the OT characters, only to end up in the same place story-wise.




Regarding the 180 under KK, it would be comical, if it wasn't so ironic and sad, what these two are now saying (if only it was followed from the beginning):

(talking about the whole slate of Star Wars media, but it applies)

Favreau: "But I think, again, there are people who've been involved with Star Wars for so many decades and you want them to benefit from the experience. You want to acknowledge what they've done and make it that if you've put that time in… that we're going to respect that."

Filoni: "Respect the investment. Yeah."

[CessnaDriver]

Originally Posted by IcedDog

This had to be the strangest episode of the entire series, so I certainly understand.

I mean even Grogu felt bewildered, this is how he reacted to seeing Jack Black and Lizzo

It was cringe upon cringe.
I found it really horrible.
Half way through I thought just to walk away from the whole thing. The first two seasons often was feelings of elation and bad assery.
I'm becoming disappointed and worse... repelled. I don't know if they will pull this out of the fire a this point.

[qz33]

Originally Posted by ZenLogikos

I like Daisy. Too bad she played an awful character in three awful movies.

...

So, in short, what do you mainly dislike about her character?

[The Dark Knight]

Originally Posted by qz33

So, in short, what do you mainly dislike about her character?

Oh man... i am so worked up about that... Ray is just a mary sue, they tried to change that with the 9th film but too little too late. Jar jar Abrahams or anyone at his caliber really think they change people with their films like they really teach something to anyone ???? like girl power or anything ??? who really takes their stupid films serious ??? their stupid understanding of a powerful woman is a mary sue... It is not up to stupid hacks like Jar Jar Abrahams to show the way to the people, there are art films and art directors for that. Who the hell do you think you are, moron.

[ZenLogikos]

Originally Posted by qz33

So, in short, what do you mainly dislike about her character?

I never complained about any "Mary Sue" business immediately after "The Force Awakens". Despite being a totally unoriginal movie, I was open to what they would do with her.

But "in short", and "mainly" what I dislike about her (and I wouldn't necessarily consider her the worst part of the sequels), she serves no purpose, is not interesting, and feels incredibly forced into the situations she found herself.

The "long" of it:

As I said, considering where the story ended up, it's clear that she was merely a gender-swapped substitute for an older, legacy character, made to appeal to a different and younger audience. That's before you even get into real world agendas that KK has with her and Star Wars in general.

Now, the policy is to "throw everything against the wall, and see what sticks". Disney are literally covering every time period now, which is the only reason they're giving Rey another shot. She didn't sell toys the first time around (the whole sequels were so devoid of interesting characters and cool, memorable set pieces).

Believe me, I'm not advocating that Lucas would have done better. I've read where his story would have gone, and it's just as much of a mess and inconsistent with Episodes I-VI.

I'm an advocate of where Disney are now - respecting the EU, and bringing in what has gained consensus as being worthwhile. Not everything should or could have been made canon, but Disney didn't respect anything that the fandom had embraced for 30 years, which resulted in an unplanned mess of ST.

I would love for someone to argue the merits of the ST, against what could have been...

Episodes VII-IX focusing on a heroic Luke, introducing new heroes in a Jedi Academy (gee, not unlike Filoni building up (a popular female) Ahsoka in the Clone Wars time period...), facing new threats from Unknown Regions, introducing Thrawn, Xizor, no clones, no planet-killing weapons, no return of the Emperor (which devalued Anakin and Luke's journeys), while passing the baton respectfully to new heroes.

Would have appealed to long-time diehards, as well as newbies. How wouldn't that have been better?

....Or... you could burn it down. There were lots of stories like that in the EU that fans loved... right?

But nope. Screw up the Skywalker saga. Watch profits shrink exponentially after each movie, then reverse course. It's almost as if there wasn't a single Star Wars fan in a decision-making position at Disney when they bought Star Wars.

A property with the size and scope and cultural significance and fictional history might have benefitted from careful planning, instead of a quick cash grab. When that reverence wasn't shown from the start, I don't think you can blame fanboys for wishful retcon thinking. Halloween has, what? Four different continuities? Time and money will dictate that future possibility. A simple change of ownership dictated canon... once.

[qz33]

Originally Posted by The Dark Knight

Oh man... i am so worked up about that... Ray is just a mary sue, they tried to change that with the 9th film but too little too late. Jar jar Abrahams or anyone at his caliber really think they change people with their films like they really teach something to anyone ???? like girl power or anything ??? who really takes their stupid films serious ??? their stupid understanding of a powerful woman is a mary sue... It is not up to stupid hacks like Jar Jar Abrahams to show the way to the people, there are art films and art directors for that. Who the hell do you think you are, moron.

Originally Posted by ZenLogikos

I never complained about any "Mary Sue" business immediately after "The Force Awakens". Despite being a totally unoriginal movie, I was open to what they would do with her.

But "in short", and "mainly" what I dislike about her (and I wouldn't necessarily consider her the worst part of the sequels), she serves no purpose, is not interesting, and feels incredibly forced into the situations she found herself.

The "long" of it:

As I said, considering where the story ended up, it's clear that she was merely a gender-swapped substitute for an older, legacy character, made to appeal to a different and younger audience. That's before you even get into real world agendas that KK has with her and Star Wars in general.

Now, the policy is to "throw everything against the wall, and see what sticks". Disney are literally covering every time period now, which is the only reason they're giving Rey another shot. She didn't sell toys the first time around (the whole sequels were so devoid of interesting characters and cool, memorable set pieces).

Believe me, I'm not advocating that Lucas would have done better. I've read where his story would have gone, and it's just as much of a mess and inconsistent with Episodes I-VI.

...

These 2 things are a juxtaposition. Many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view. I've always enjoyed talking with you here Zen so I'll ask you this: What if Star Wars always was about Rey?

As far as the EU, as an extreme Star Wars fan none of it ever appealed to me. Some of it is all fine and good but at best just standard fantasy/sci-fi fiction. But the EU was NEVER canon. It was simply allowed to exist in the available vacuum...until it wasn't. But I don't believe it was ever meant to be swept into the garbage bin just that Star Wars' future would not be beholden to it verbatim.

[IcedDog]

Originally Posted by qz33

But the EU was NEVER canon. It was simply allowed to exist in the available vacuum...until it wasn't. But I don't believe it was ever meant to be swept into the garbage bin just that Star Wars future would not be beholden to it verbatim.

Yep, I think the plan was always to cherry pick from the EU/Legends as creatives saw fit, but making the EU officially non-canon from the start was their only realistic option.

[ZenLogikos]

Originally Posted by qz33

These 2 things are a juxtaposition. Many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view. I've always enjoyed talking with you here Zen so I'll ask you this: What if Star Wars always was about Rey?

As far as the EU, as an extreme Star Wars fan none of it ever appealed to me. Some of it is all fine and good but at best just standard fantasy/sci-fi fiction. But the EU was NEVER canon. It was simply allowed to exist in the available vacuum...until it wasn't. But I don't believe it was ever meant to be swept into the garbage bin just that Star Wars' future would not be beholden to it verbatim.

I'm not exactly sure what the point of such a question is, nor how to answer it, except to say...

Star Wars is clearly not all about Rey. Lucas created Star Wars OT, and it wasn't about Rey. It was about Luke. Then he created the PT, and it was about Anakin. Then later he decided I-VI was about Anakin AND Luke, the Skywalker saga, a father and his redemption through his son. Then some years later when he was either going to make the ST or sell to Disney, he decided, no, it would really be about Leia. Then Abrams, Kennedy et al decided it would be Rey, perhaps based on a general direction by Lucas.

I've followed it all. So I find the question irrelevant and unnecessary. Lucas changed his mind because he was making it up as he went along, retconning what he could, to make it work.

The only reason I believe anyone could make a claim for it being all about Rey is not due to convincing story elements or plot points, but simply that that is the horribly written trilogy that Disney ended up with. It simply exists.

If I felt the ST was well written, I wouldn't feel the need to belabor the point about disrespecting (or at the very least, not even considering) the EU, from the start. There were plenty of post-ROTJ story beats to draw from that had been largely embraced (while not canon, as you say) by the fandom, but Disney used practically none of it in the ST. When they did, it was hackneyed or retread (yeah, Jacen Solo falls to the Dark Side...but in the ST, he's Ben Solo, except with none of the backstory, or Jedi Academy build-up, just more petulant Anakin Ep. II-type behavior, featuring a demoralized uncle Luke. Entertaining stuff!; The EU Sun Crusher super weapon becomes yet another planet-size killer in Starkiller base, etc...)

Timothy Zahn. Disney could have relied on Zahn alone and they would have been fine. Who did Kennedy have that she thought would be as well received as Zahn? Why did she ever think that she absolutely NEEDED one person to both write AND direct? Ridiculous. And at the same time, hand that job off to three different individuals for a trilogy? Double ridiculous.

Only after diminishing returns, in concert with Kennedy's ego, in thinking her crew could come up with something more interesting - but inevitably regurgitating in VII and subverting in VIII and scrambling/mad-libbing in IX, did they really start to rely on the EU, with the hiring/elevating of Filoni and Favreau.

But regarding EU, I haven't read MOST of EU stuff, of course, but I am familiar with most of it. And when I refer to it in mostly positive terms, it's not necessarily for writing ability, per se. It's for characters and storylines that made sense in the context of what George has created. The EU and fandom didn't try to reinvent the wheel, for the most part. It did what the name states - expanding the universe. What it and video games did in the 90s was keep Star Wars relevant until the PT hit.

Nothing introduced in the EU gave me the reaction I had in the theater of TLJ, when about half-way in I looked around and said "What the ---- is this? Is everyone seeing this?" I've never left a theater, but I was close. It was so discordant with Star Wars, for me.

Then RoS. Bad fanfic. A mess. Somewhat entertaining. A shallow rollercoaster ride.

You say you're an extreme Star Wars fan. I am too. But what does that mean? It will be different for everyone. As an "extreme Star Wars fan", I love the OT...but I don't think they're amazing. I like the PT...but they're not great movies. What the PT do best is the world building, and the Force/sabers/Jedi/Sith, etc., which I love. The video games and other media greatly contribute to this aspect as well. All of the good stuff has an unmistakable, quintessentially 'Star Wars feel' to it. It's that quality that the ST had none of for me (including but not limited to set design, costume design, character design, etc). But the Mandalorian has. Andor has. Boba Fett and Obi-wan have, but their quality of writing was a step below. They're similar to the PT in that regard.

There are some fans who adore the movies. They're seemingly looking for one thing in new projects - that they evoke the same feeling as the originals. I don't know that they'll ever be satisfied. Those people may have liked The Force Awakens best though. Some of them may not realize that Episode I-VI are melodrama. So when Rogue One or Andor come along, with a different tone, they're not happy. But they're unmistakably Star Wars to me. The numbered episodes (should) have a certain consistent tone, but that's not necessary for all projects, imo.

I do not know what people see in TLJ though. The characters and locales seem plucked from another scifi universe (great Del Toro cameo btw, where he played...himself), and I believe some are fooled into liking it because they think the way it handles some themes are more mature or evolved or complex in some way, even though RJ himself has stated in interviews that Star Wars is not to be taken "seriously", like "The Batman", for example (of all movies to pick...). (I guess it's not about war or rebellion or millions of deaths, but ok)

Kennedy and/or RJ specifically stated that TLJ was something that was necessary for Star Wars to move forward, and I think they may have their heads up each others asses. To this day I haven't read anyone explain what in the hell they're talking about. A lot of beating around the bush. They talk about Star Wars like it needed to be "rescued", i.e. changed or updated in some way, or it would just wither away.

Lucas always aimed Star Wars at children, but children grew up and still wanted Star Wars, and some people mistakenly believe TLJ is the best answer we've gotten to that. The problem is that Episode VII-IX are tied thematically, chronologically, and serially together with I-VI, so switching styles, themes and/or tone is WAY out of place. I dislike what RJ did so much that I'd be glad to never see him around Star Wars again, but I've also said that in a time period far away from the Skywalkers, preferably without Force-users, he might be able to do something worthwhile in that Universe, not unlike Andor.

The ST were technically sound, but that's it. Good acting. Good cinematography. But poor writing and creative decisions. Poor character motivations. Poor understanding of what constitutes universe-breaking physics and technology, and established mythology (not 100% happy with Feloni here either).

You don't accept the EU because it simply 'filled a void'. I don't accept the ST because it's simply the best Disney could come up with.

And I know the EU was never canon. The only things back then were the movies...and everything else. It's well known that Lucas didn't consider anything canon outside of the movies. Then, slowly Lucas started approving of a couple other items canonicity, beginning with Filoni's Clone Wars, and the Force Unleashed (which has since been decanonized (see - it can be done...)).